Kickas.org Forums Treatments, Drugs and Alternatives NSD and diet-related; Cipro for John

Hi John,

Tried to send you a PM but was unable. So I would like to ask you a question. I have been having a big reoccurance of my AS. Was using flagyl very successfully but it has stopped working. I found a dr. who would give me cipro and am going to try it. She suggests I do fleet for 2 days plus a juice fast and then start the cipro. I am trying the NSD again thinking that was what made the flagyl so successful the first time around? I had been on it for 1 1/2 years when I started flagyl. I slowly started eating starch and it didn't seem to be a problem so I continued eating it. I am going to go back to NSD again and see if it helps.
My question is, if I do the cipro, could the AS get worse before it gets better??? If so, how long will it last??? Or will the results from cipro be immediate? I am a little hesitant to try it but on the other hand am curious to hear from others who have tried cipro. Thank you for any advice or help you can give me on this subject.

Debbie

Hi, Debbie:

The answer could be rather complex, depending upon several factors.

My first estimation is that, since you had been on the NSD and had AS under control for an extended period of time, the Cipro would work rapidly, without producing a 'Herx' reaction.

HOWEVER, the potential still exists that colonies have re-established enough that some patience will be required and getting better may include getting worse first.

If I were to make odds on what will happen, I would lean in the direction of the first proposition by about 2 to 1.

The caveat is that, since Cipro works in a way that can select out resistive strains very rapidly, total starch restriction should be followed just before and while on the Cipro. My own protocol suggests 11 days at 1g/day Cipro, and after day 4 you should know whether or not it will work for you at this time. I suggest staying on the Flagyl, but using it intermittently ( 2 weeks on then 1 off and then 2 off after several cycles with other antibiotics).

I use Cipro for its killing power, and then tetracycline for its basic germ suppressive capabilities, and I do these in cycles. The problem with antibiotics in general are their potential to produce the overgrowth of C. albicans and other fungi and pathogens. I also include anti-candidiasis measures (mostly things like caprylic acid, garlic, and colloidal silver), but have not 'graduated' to the pharmaceutical anti-fungals, since I have not had candidiasis--that I KNOW about.

Many people have AS that resulted from candidiasis, so this is a real concern and some have recognized that even if they restrict starches, but eat sugar, they still have AS symptoms and even flare.

My email should be available in my profile and you are welcome to send a request for my protocol, albeit I don't remember whether it is more detailed than what I have just provided.

Best Regards,
John

Hi John,

Thank you for your quick reply. I was on NSD for 1 1/2 years but did not achieve pain free days until I started the flagyl. I continued on the flagyl but started eating starch and did not have a reaction to the starch that I could notice. So I continued with the flagyl for about 1 year. Then I went off all drugs including flagyl and was pain free for about another 6 months. Then the AS came back and I went back to flagyl and it stopped working. So my dr. has suggested cipro 500 mg per day for 6 weeks. I tried minocin last week and by day 4 was in a lot of pain so I stopped. If a person experiences a herx, how long should they continue with the antibiotic? How can you tell the difference between a herx and your AS coming back? Maybe I stopped the mincin too soon? I am going to give the NSD a good try again as I hope to stay off all other drugs because I feel my stomach can not take them at this time. Thanks again for your help. I will let you know how I make out. Right now I am just doing some juicing (with a juicer) for a few days so that should get rid of some of the klebs I would think?

Debbie

Hey, Debbie:


That is the problem with AS--it can creep up on us! I just stick with the programme...MOST of the time.

Quote:

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If a person experiences a herx, how long should they continue with the antibiotic? How can you tell the difference between a herx and your AS coming back? Maybe I stopped the mincin too soon? I am going to give the NSD a good try again as I hope to stay off all other drugs because I feel my stomach can not take them at this time.

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The Herx should last about 4-5 days, maximum, but can sort of trail off gradually. It takes about 10 days to take down a flare, if doing strict NSD (and doing it right--testing everything and also avoiding dairy and fatty meats--especially red--during the initial recovery stages) and even taking antibiotics might increase the slope so that we would really notice that we are much better after about four days. So, I don't know whether you gave the minocycline a fair shot--I know that I did not because it was the WRONG form (according to RBF literature it should be 'pelletized' or from Lederle; mine was not--and it sure did not work).

It is almost too difficult to tell the difference between a Herx and AS coming back--the main difference is that the Herx might not be as severe, and the pains are more isolated, as if just coming out of a flare instead of entering one (if that makes any sense...sometimes when I would flare, I would notice it more in places even between the big joints--sort of like they were joining up together, but when taking a flare down, the pains became more distinct and isolated until I achieved full relief).

If I thought that an antibiotic was causing a real Herx, I would--well, I have stayed on that antibiotic about a week, to be sure. More often it was either an ineffective agent, or bad batch (I used to keep records and switch batches before running out of a known good date code, so I could go back on these--I could ALWAYS tell within four days whether a batch was good or not, by taking known good samples).

I fear Cipro for such a long time as six months, and I believe that such long-term use could reduce its efficacy. Just from my own experience, I would re-consult with your doctor much earlier after seeing how you are doing and suggest tetracycline. Your doctor is REALLY GOOD, btw!

Please let us know how you are doing and I hope that you will follow some of the supplement guidelines but avoid taking calcium, magnesium, and zinc while on the Cipro (these can reduce the absorption of the antibiotic).

Health,
John

Hi John,

My dr. said 6 weeks not 6 months. Even 6 weeks sounds long to me. But I have to give it a good shot. I feel like I am running out of options.
I did have the pellitized form of minocin. My pharmacist specially ordered it in for me. Looking back I should have stuck it out a little longer. It is hard to take something that you know is causing pain though.
I am thinking the reason the flagyl worked for me the first time is because I was on the NSD for so long before starting the flagyl. That is the only difference I can see. I didn't think the diet was helping but obviously it was. I do not do dairy. I find I react to dairy the way others react to wheat. Dairy is usually an immediate reaction, so it is easy to stay away from.
Thanks for the tip on calcium and zinc while on the cipro. I would not have known that.Yes I have an awesome dr. She is very open to suggestions.

When you say strict do you mean even if an apple it starchy not to eat it? That strict? I am going to have to really re-train myself to get into this diet again. Thanks for your help again John.

Debbie