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kevin_A
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kevin_A
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I couldn't have put it better Alan I agree with you 100%.I dont want to add more as I'm sick of being dictated to by arrogant people.

Kevin

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,127
Steel_AS_Kicker
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Steel_AS_Kicker
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I find it interesting that LDN is more accepted than NSD/LSD.

Just my experience but it leaves me to wonder why. Is it because it is a "drug" And drugs are worth a try where as diets are not.
I am talking more about forums than anything else.

However in this particular case I found it equaly as frustrating that LDN was not mentioned in this booklet.

I understand that the all mighty dollar determines to some extent what is put in these types of information booklets. But even though it still frustrates me that unless something has been clinicaly proven, its not worth even suggesting.
I like to know what all the options are not just the ones that have been aproved by some board somewhere. Particularly for something like AS.

Surely even if the NSD/LSD or LDN dont work, it is not like you have lost huge amounts of time or necessarily risked you life or anything. And for those that have exhusted all other conventional medications, what is the harm in suggesting they try any of these. I understand why here in QLD Aus. they may not suggest Medical majuana for pain, as it is still illegle here but
LDN, NSD/LSD are not and very little harm can come from at least giving it a go.

Ok just rambling on here.

One question and please excuse my ignorance.
What is SAA?


Joined: Jul 2001
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I've definitely learned the presentation and delivery of a debate is as important as the debate.
I wish that, going forward, we all stop proselytizing for either side of any debate, not just this one. This one is particularly sensitive but it should not be more important than any other method of relief.
We all have different lives, different situations and different reasons for going in certain directions. Let's respect that and just try to help out where we can in a sensible way.

I hope you all agree.


Timo
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Steel_AS_Kicker
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Steel_AS_Kicker
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I never expected this to be a debate.

I guess I enjoyed how it was when I first came here.
Many told me about the main drugs and also mentioned some have found relief with NSD and later LDN was mentioned. You know all possible helpful things.

I just wish those that don't know about KickAs also get all the info. If I wasn't on here I would not have even know what to look up. If that makes sense.


Joined: Feb 2010
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Iron_AS_Kicker
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Iron_AS_Kicker
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It is fairly uncontroversial that type II diabetes has diet as one of the root causes. There have been diet studies done to demonstrate that, at least in early stages, it can be reversed by diet alone.

At Cedar Sinai hospital, the AS rheumetologist happens to share an office area with a nutrition department supporting diabetes patients, who can really use the help from professionals. They also need support from their close family members, or else it is almost impossible. As a result, very few people who actually have type II diabetes have managed to cure themselves by diet -- they are frequently on prescription drugs to control it!

So, suppose for the moment that diet were a significant contributing factor to AS.

In one sense we are in the same boat as the diabetes patients, in that it is very challenging to design a successful diet treatment without the support of experts. Many people will fail, and a few very determined, with very supportive families and/or friends, or perhaps less far-advanced in disease will succeed. So the case-study results will be mixed, which is what I've observed.

Side note: people who succeed at diet while others fail do not have the right to be arrogant about how they have "so much more determination and will-power". Their whole life situation contributed to success as well... for instance they either have a super-dedicated loved one preparing starch-free dairy-free whatever-free meals for them, or they still have sufficient health to be able to shop and cook things from scratch. Also the availability or lack of availability of starch-free produce in local markets could have a big impact on whether you succeed or not. In addition there is the question of how long it takes to respond to diet; those who see even small results in a few weeks have a huge advantage over someone who wouldn't be able to discern any improvement without strict compliance for a whole year.

So, what about the research studies on diet: if diet is a valid approach to treating AS, why isn't anybody publishing papers on it? confused2

Even if diet works, it would still be hard to get the large-scale medical studies going to provide evidence. There are millions of people with diabetes, and governments have pegged it as a high-priority public health issue -- how many people have even heard of AS in comparison?

On the other hand, rheumetologists have heard of AS, and could be doing small-scale studies of diet similar to those old London studies that certain people are getting tired of. Why aren't they?? Doctors are people too, and are influenced by current medical culture and what they were taught in school. Diet treatments were NOT taught much in medical school; they are the realm of nutritionists, not hot-shot arthritis researchers. Biotech is very hot and glamorous, and the lead researcher for the AS study in which I participate is just as turned on by new biologics as I am by elegant software design. At the moment he doesn't want to spend his time designing nutritional studies instead, and figuring out how to recruit enough patients who will actually be compliant day in and day out for months and years at a time. What exactly is his motivation to switch?

Another side note: I have doctors in my family, and a cousin currently in med school. Note that I didn't say they are all in the pockets of the drug manufacturers. Sure drug companies have an influence on mainstream medical knowledge by making it easy to get funding for certain types of studies, but they haven't perfected mind-control or anything.

I do know one doctor who studied at UCLA (very traditional, well-respected medical school) but has sort of a maverick personality and keeps a close watch on "alternative" medicine areas to learn what the mainstream medical practices might be missing. He found that diet is one of those areas, and has incorporated it into his practice. He has had good success in treating many "ADD" (Attention Deficit Disorder) children with diet instead of drugging them like just about every other doctor in our county. He also happens to be my doctor, and his professional opinion on auto-immune arthritis (as a GP, not a specialist) is that:

* the immune system is flared up over some type or types of germs chronically present in the body
* starch-free diet cuts down on a known reservoir of potentially problem-causing germs, especially important if the gut is "leaky"
* finding the right drug to kill the problem germs could also work well, but some bacteria are very tricky about hiding inside cells and are nearly impossible to eradicate (see http://cpnhelp.org/ for example of a tricky bug implicated in some cases of auto-immune diseases such as MS and non-AS arthritis)

So, I've got one "mainstream" doctor who likes to organize big research projects and focuses on high-tech treatment of symptoms rather than exploring causes, and one "maverick" doctor who is interested in exploring diet and antibiotics but only on a patient-by-patient basis -- no interest in organizing research projects, doesn't have time left after his practice and raising his kids. No prospect in sight for getting into a rigorous study on diet, and that is where we all stand right now... frown

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 221
K
Second_Degree_AS_Kicker
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Second_Degree_AS_Kicker
K
Joined: Dec 2009
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I am never offended during an online stouch! The only issue I would have is that I am not part of any group or cult other than KickAS. I also never preach to others about NSD.

I will continue to report my progress (or lack of) over the next year or so.

Keith

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,127
Steel_AS_Kicker
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Steel_AS_Kicker
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Good luck with it Keith.
I hope it proves to be a success for you.
Take care.


Joined: Sep 2009
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Fifth_Degree_AS_Kicker
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B
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Posts: 389
Well all this rude arguing is so sad.We are all suffering!!
I don't care if anyone calls me a "dieteer" or whatever.
When it comes down to it,honestly,all I care about is feeling better. No one is going to watch out for me and my health but myself.Luckily,I found a doc that agrees with me and will help w/ antibiotics.Not shoving anti-TNF down my throat which is ALL I have gotten since diagnosis. She has used this in conjunction w/ diet (although gluten free) w/ great success for over 20 yrs.I just tell people my experience with hope it might help some. I would hate to be responsible for convincing people not to try something that could save their life!Even if it didn't help me!
Shauna


Off antibiotics and now exploring mindbody healing.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,179
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AS Czar
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AS Czar
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Alan:

If someone like Yourself wants to be offended, they will find a way to be offended.

You want to ramp it up and put words in my mouth--YOUR mis-interpretation:

Quote:
John on this occasion has ramped up his usual self importance by declaring all non diet AS'ers, those on the pill, or the biologic, as worthless, not up to the hard struggle of the diet, the efficacy of which he and one doctor are convinced (The rest of the worlds doctors it seems are not up to the job). When will John and his disciples realise that the objections on here are not to the diet but the arrogant method by which it is sold. The method used I am sure drives more from than to it.


It is a topic I take seriously. You prefer churlish humor--whatever floats Your particular boat. If You had the objective capacity to look at both sides, You might find a lot more arrogance to complain about.

I have no disciples, only apostles--each one an avatar in their own right. If anyone really objects to hearing about diet, there are many mainstream websites that would love to take your donations.

For anyone wishing to prove to themselves that there is a dietary connection. It takes only a week or so of water fasting.

Waiting for double-blind, multi-centered, placebo controlled studies is for people not unconvinced of diet, but totally unwilling to even consider this option. Who cares what they do? If treatment is too much a personal choice to discuss, I suppose we do not require any forums at all...just find a doctor to tell you what you want to hear.

HAPPY,
John

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,046
Iron_AS_Kicker
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Iron_AS_Kicker
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Some people here might not be able to try the water fast experiment on themselves...

I have a friend who suffers from IBS, but also happens to have severe lupus and prednisone-induced metabolic disorder. She might not survive a 1-week water fast to see if it impacts her IBS!

How about someone whose spouse worries herself into a panic attack at the thought of him self-treating based on some "stupid internet site" instead of following the advice of a "real doctor"?

Medical studies that led to the medical establishment including diet in their treatment arsenal would make it possible for a wider range of people to be helped.

At the same time, individual case studies are worth presenting, and I'm grateful for those who bother to share them. Some people will be in a position to do their own experiments, and some few will even have doctors supporting them (hi Shauna smile ). In fact, my own GP likes to read case studies for ideas on what to try.

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