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#468934 05/06/12 03:43 PM
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Violeta Offline OP
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Do you believe it? Some foods are touted as being good for losing weight because they contain resistant starch....starch that resists digestion and feeds the "good" bacteria.

http://www.ehow.com/list_6850812_list-resistant-starch-foods.html

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Yes, I've seen those recommendations. When they claim it gives an advantage of "good" bacteria over "bad" bacteria, they are referring to medical studies that tried to measure whether there was any statistical advantage for specific known types of "good" bacteria over specific known types of "bad" bacteria.

It is too much to expect that no "bad" bacteria would thrive on resistant starch, so it depends on your existing gut flora whether adding resistant starch would give "good" bacteria an edge or not. Note that Klebsiella is considered a "neutral" gut bacteria by most researchers, so effect on Klebsiella may not even be taken into account at all... let alone other yet undiscovered germs that could contribute to AS[1]. In particular, studies focused on weight loss would likely concentrate on ratios of Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes germs, since those are known to affect weight[2].

Also note that your starting point for diet also helps determine whether adding resistant starch is an improvement... what foods were being replaced by the resistant starches? Replacing a donut with plain baked potato might be a net gain, while replacing low-starch flax bread with plain baked potato would likely be a bad thing for us.

[1] https://commonfund.nih.gov/hmp/overview.aspx
"Within the body of a healthy adult, microbial cells are estimated to outnumber human cells ten to one. This community, however, remains largely unstudied, leaving their influence upon human development, physiology, immunity, and nutrition almost entirely unknown."

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora
"The ratio between Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes dynamically reflects the overall weight condition of an individual, shifting towards Bacteroidetes if an obese individual loses weight."

SJLC #468939 05/06/12 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: SJLC
Yes, I've seen those recommendations. When they claim it gives an advantage of "good" bacteria over "bad" bacteria, they are referring to medical studies that tried to measure whether there was any statistical advantage for specific known types of "good" bacteria over specific known types of "bad" bacteria.

It is too much to expect that no "bad" bacteria would thrive on resistant starch, so it depends on your existing gut flora whether adding resistant starch would give "good" bacteria an edge or not. Note that Klebsiella is considered a "neutral" gut bacteria by most researchers, so effect on Klebsiella may not even be taken into account at all... let alone other yet undiscovered germs that could contribute to AS[1]. In particular, studies focused on weight loss would likely concentrate on ratios of Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes germs, since those are known to affect weight[2].

Also note that your starting point for diet also helps determine whether adding resistant starch is an improvement... what foods were being replaced by the resistant starches? Replacing a donut with plain baked potato might be a net gain, while replacing low-starch flax bread with plain baked potato would likely be a bad thing for us.

[1] https://commonfund.nih.gov/hmp/overview.aspx
"Within the body of a healthy adult, microbial cells are estimated to outnumber human cells ten to one. This community, however, remains largely unstudied, leaving their influence upon human development, physiology, immunity, and nutrition almost entirely unknown."

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora
"The ratio between Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes dynamically reflects the overall weight condition of an individual, shifting towards Bacteroidetes if an obese individual loses weight."



Good points! The wiki artible looks very interesting. I'll go check that out now. I had read somewhere something like this: "Some bacteria make you fat and some bacteria make you thin."

A thought I just had about the resistant starch is that I'd been eating ripe bananas this past week thinking that when they're ripe a lot of the starch turns to glucose, and actually on the list of content of starch in foods they are lower than almonds.(2.7 to 2.3) But I haven't had any since the day before yesterday because I ate one or two that weren't completely ripe and I could tell that they bothered me. After finding bananas in second place on the resistant starch list I am wondering if because of that they are more likely than almonds to affect someone who has bad gut bacteria. Something that I was eating was affecting me neurologically, too, because I couldn't type without making a million mistakes. It's a little better today. I think it's like my early warning symptom.

Does anyone else get noticable neurological symptoms?

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Yes, the wiki article is very good. As a result of reading it I googled "fungi" and the first article I found is about overabundance of candida and what it causes. I know candida is old, but for some reason the information has more relevance to me.

http://www.karinya.com/fungus.htm

Also, I was on and off a low purine diet for 3 years in an effort to stay out of joint pain. I kept wondering why some people can eat purines but not others. This may be the answer. If you have too much fungi in your gut it could be producing maybe even more purines than what you are eating. Which might be why eating sweets and baked goods can cause pain even though they don't contain purines.

Very interesting lead, thanks, SJLC.

Betsy

Wow, wow, wow. Saccharomyces cerversiae has been used to cause gout in animals! That's one of the yeasts found in kefir, which I had been drinking for a couple of months. It's also the yeast used in making beer and baking!
This might be why pau d'arco helps me so much; it deals with fungi!

http://www.bgscb.org/Vol1-47-52.pdf

I realize this is about gout, but gout, arthritis, RA, AS are all related! This is how they are related: fungi + uric acid!

Last edited by Violeta; 05/06/12 07:33 PM.
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Originally Posted By: Violeta
After finding bananas in second place on the resistant starch list I am wondering if because of that they are more likely than almonds to affect someone who has bad gut bacteria.


There are more people here who can eat almonds than bananas. Bananas were listed as a fruit to always stay away from in the low-starch diet book by Carol Sinclair. Almonds are a problem to some of us however, possibly because nuts are a common food intolerance problem.

Originally Posted By: Violeta

Something that I was eating was affecting me neurologically, too, because I couldn't type without making a million mistakes. It's a little better today. I think it's like my early warning symptom.

Does anyone else get noticable neurological symptoms?


I don't get neurological symptoms, but some of my non-AS friends and family have complained about brain fog. One has it on lupus flares, so that could be inflammation. The temporary dyslexia thing doesn't sound familiar though.

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over-ripened bananas do no contain too much starch. but if you eat green ones....


34. Some rheumys say AS stage 1-2 some others say USpA
Also UC - rectocolitis.

UC curently in remission since feb 2011.
AS/USpA remission march-aug 2011. Flare - sept-nov 2011 (antibiotics). Remission now...

Modified NSD/SCD. Cook your own !
____________________________________________________________
Mesalazine-Salofalk 500 mg/day

And the list of my medication has become verry short after some years on this diet smile
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The key with Resistant Starch is its unique ability to get your colon to produce butyrate (SCFA from fermentation). Klebsiella cannot ferment RS - only simple starches and sugars.

You should also look into long chain inulin (another indestible fiber, IF) that produces large amounts of butyrate in the colon. A great source is sunchokes (raw or cooked)

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Originally Posted By: kawasakiguy37
Klebsiella cannot ferment RS - only simple starches and sugars.



Can you back this up with some data?

BTW, inulin always makes me flare, colon and joints both. I've tried foods containing it and also as a supplement

Don't know about the contents of inulin in green onions - they seem to agree with me and lower the inflammation - but the usual onions will send me backwards.


34. Some rheumys say AS stage 1-2 some others say USpA
Also UC - rectocolitis.

UC curently in remission since feb 2011.
AS/USpA remission march-aug 2011. Flare - sept-nov 2011 (antibiotics). Remission now...

Modified NSD/SCD. Cook your own !
____________________________________________________________
Mesalazine-Salofalk 500 mg/day

And the list of my medication has become verry short after some years on this diet smile
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Yeah I had issues with inulin too. Foods that contained powdered / processed inulin are the worst.

Onions and garlic I was able to gradually acclimatise my body to. This suggested to me that the fermentation produced too many weed organisms and that spiked my immune system. My body gradually got used to it by introducing first in small amounts that caused no pain, and then slowly increasing it until I could very easily tolerate them.


what I can eat on the diet (click here) -- my blog -- contact me (PM is broken)
"Some men, in truth, live that they may eat, as the irrational creatures, 'whose life is their belly, and nothing else.' But the Instructor enjoins us to eat that we may live." -- Clement of Alexandria (about 200 AD)
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Originally Posted By: Alinus
Originally Posted By: kawasakiguy37
Klebsiella cannot ferment RS - only simple starches and sugars.



Can you back this up with some data?

BTW, inulin always makes me flare, colon and joints both. I've tried foods containing it and also as a supplement


I have seen reports that Klebsiella does ferment more complex carbs, not just inulin but even some of the replacement sweeteners like glycerol, sorbitol, xylitol.

Take a look at this HUGE list of metabolic pathways for klebsiella...

http://biocyc.org/META/NEW-IMAGE?type=ORGANISM&object=TAX-573


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