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Posted By: Cleaveland Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/16/11 02:20 AM
Having a bad flare on either side of my sternum, hurts to touch. I am currently doing the ice pack treatment. A friend of mine who is a pt told me to go cold shower then hot shower and ice after, that helps for about 30 minutes. Any other ideas, tricks or tips?
Posted By: Sue22 Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/16/11 02:54 AM
i just did a lot of ice. but contrasting ice and heat back and forth works even better for a lot of things, but is more work, so often i just use ice.

also for me, the pain in the front where the ribs attached to the sternum seemed to be caused by rib issues in the back along the spine. by treating the ribs at the spine, helped the front too.

last fall i noticed that swinging my arms when i walked made my costochondritis worse, so i walked with my hands in my pockets til it calmed down. can't really explain it, but noticed it.

i also have some topical triple nsaid creme (kip gel) made by the local compounding pharmacist that helps if i have an acute spot.

sorry you are having this pain. hugss
Posted By: disk Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/16/11 03:52 AM
Hi Sue

You say USpA...not diagnosed AS yet? What is USpA like? Why is it difficult to clinch the diagnosis?
Posted By: Sue22 Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/16/11 04:41 AM
hi disk,

i think different people / different doctors define USpA differently. i know how my rheumatologist defines it because he wrote the WebMD description! smile

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/332945-overview

Quote:
Undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy:[18, 31]

Undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy is a syndrome with features consistent with the spondyloarthropathies, but affected patients do not fulfill criteria for any specific spondyloarthropathy. Criteria are outlined in Table 2 at the end of this section.

Undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy may represent an early phase or incomplete form of ankylosing spondylitis or another spondyloarthropathy. In fact, several studies of undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy included many patients who probably should have been diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis, reactive arthritis, or IBD-associated spondyloarthropathy, which made the clinical description very ambiguous. However, more recent data suggest that these patients may represent a distinct disease entity based on demographic and clinical criteria.

Although no specific criteria are identified, using modified Amor criteria can be helpful in confirming a clinical diagnosis.[19]

Distinguishing features of undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy:[19]

The age of onset has a very wide range, with the peak onset at approximately age 50 years. The male-to-female ratio is 1:3. The onset is usually insidious, and, even after years of active disease, sacroiliitis and spondylitis are either absent or appear very mild on routine radiography.

Clinical manifestations of undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy include inflammatory back pain (90%), buttock pain (80%), enthesitis (85%), peripheral arthritis (35%), dactylitis (17%), and fatigue (55%).

Extra-articular manifestations are uncommon, occurring in fewer than 10% of patients, and include acute anterior uveitis (1-2%), oral ulcers, rash, nonspecific IBD, pleuritis, and pericarditis.

Findings of laboratory studies are generally unremarkable except for the presence of an elevated ESR or C-reactive protein level (36%). HLA-B27 antigen is positive only in approximately 20-25% of patients.

These factors, especially the late age of onset, female predominance, and low HLA-B27 positivity, suggest that Undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy is distinct from ankylosing spondylitis and the other classic spondyloarthropathies.

In addition, when these patients are observed over long periods, they rarely develop clinical manifestations or radiographic changes that result in a change of diagnosis (outlined in Table 3, at the end of this section). Occasionally, radiographs show evidence of periosteal new bone formation at sites of enthesitis, especially at the insertion of the Achilles tendon or plantar fascia on the calcaneus, or early syndesmophytes on the lumbar spine without bridging.

Although most patients with undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy have chronic, active disease and require long-term therapy, some patients have mild and intermittent symptoms that require intermittent symptomatic therapy. These episodes may last from 1-2 weeks to several months, with long asymptomatic periods that do not require therapy.

Most patients with undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy (>75%) require long-term therapy for ongoing symptomatic disease. Most patients respond well to nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs). Most patients maintain good function without progressive disease or clinically significant radiographic changes. A small minority of patients does not respond well to or tolerate NSAIDs. In these patients, treatment progression is similar to patients with ankylosing spondylitis, including the use of sulfasalazine, methotrexate, and TNF-α antagonists, although no well-designed clinical trials have been conducted on the treatment of undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy.

Table 2. Diagnostic Criteria for Undifferentiated Spondyloarthropathy Using Modified Amor Criteria[32, 33] (Open Table in a new window)

Inclusion Criteria Exclusion Criteria
Inflammatory back pain 1 point Diagnosis of specific spondyloarthropathy
Unilateral buttock pain 1 point Sacroiliitis on radiograph ≥ grade 2
Alternating buttock pain 2 points Precipitating genitourinary/GI infection
Enthesitis 2 points Psoriasis
Peripheral arthritis 2 points Keratoderma blennorrhagicum
Dactylitis (sausage digit) 2 points IBD (Crohn disease or ulcerative colitis)
Acute anterior uveitis 2 points Positive rheumatoid factor
HLA-B27 –positive or family history of spondyloarthropathy 2 points Positive antinuclear antibody, titer >1:80
Good response to nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs 2 points
Diagnosis of spondyloarthropathy with 6 or more points
Table 3. Clinical and Laboratory Features of Undifferentiated Spondyloarthropathy (Open Table in a new window)

Clinical Feature of Undifferentiated Spondyloarthropathy Frequency
Inflammatory back pain 90%
Buttock pain 80%
Enthesitis 75%
Peripheral arthritis 40%
Dactylitis (sausage digits) 20%
Acute anterior uveitis 1-2%
Fatigue 55%
Elevated ESR 32%
HLA-B27 –positive 25%


the doctor came to undiff spondy because:
i have "prominent" enthesitis (bad enough to tear tendons and ligaments), SI joint inflammation (diagnosed through symptoms, CT scan showing arthritic changes, cortisone injections and now flector patch being highly effective), and inflammation and ulcerations in my illeum (discovered by my gastroenterologist through a colonoscopy). also the fact that i've had dry eyes, mouth sores, and a few weird skin rashes, and that i respond to both nsaids and prednisone helped convince him. along with the morning stiffness and inflammation from being immobile (trouble with sitting too long, standing too long, laying too long).

the doctor ruled out:
1. IBD (crohns and uc) (based on colonoscopy, CT enterography done through gastroenterologist)
2. psoriatic arthritis (skin involvement not significant enough)
3. AS (no evidence of fusing through scans, no uveitis / iritis, no HLAB27)

the bottom line i came away with was that undiff spondy is "all the inflammation, none of the fusing."

you ask, "what is USpA like?" i can only answer for myself. my main problems have been two fold. SI joint inflammation and all that goes along with that. and enthesitis bad enough to cause some pretty significant tendon and ligament tears over the years; not enough to cause a rupture, but enough so i lost use of my left hand for 2-3 years, or couldn't walk for almost a year; miraculously they healed with time. and what caused these things were as simple as pouring a pot of water into the sink or light stretching, not normal. though the last two years, my biggest problem has been my ribs, especially where they join at the spine. i also have primarily gastritis and secondarily IBS, i've been able to keep both mostly under control most of the time, but when not, the gastritis is very painful and the IBS causes me to not digest my food. my new rheumy thinks "all spondys start in the gut." (just quoting, no judgement here) for me that does seem to have been the case (GI issues 5 years before arthritis issues)

so, not so much "not diagnosed with AS yet, but rather diagnosed with undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy".

why is it difficult to clinch the diagnosis? i can only give my experience. i think it depended largely on the doctor i saw. most doctors were looking for evidence of fusing, elevated esr, elevated crp, ana for lupus, RF for RA. but this doctor understood how enthesitis does not necessarily lead to elevated crp or esr, and not everyone with a spondyloarthropathy fuses. this doctor also understood that the reason i was tearing tendons and ligaments was because i have a particularly bad case of enthesitis, when it flares that is. also, i flare and get better. if a doctor sees me in a better phase, it varies if they believe my descriptions of my flares or have to see it for themselves, a difference in philosophies. i used to think that having my husband there to validate my descriptions would help, but really it didn't seem to make much of a difference.

the doctor in philadelphia (brent) and now my local rheumy, Dr P, have a better understanding of undiff spondy i think. plus they believe what i tell them and what my husband tells them, rather than having to see me at my worst.

for me it was finding the right doctors.

but now that i have, i can understand how hard it can be to diagnose undiff spondy.

and to me the most important thing is that i have doctors who are helping me. their kindness is a nice plus. smile

thank you for asking. i hope my answers can help others who see themselves in my descriptions. anything that can shorten the time from onset to diagnosis.
Posted By: DANVON Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/16/11 05:58 AM
Heat and Pennsaid works for me for some relief then I take tylenol 3 and relax to ride the flare out.
Dan
Posted By: disk Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/16/11 07:10 AM
sue, thank you so much...that is indeed great reference. lets see what the rheumy makes of all this...
Posted By: DragonSlayer Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/16/11 09:57 AM

Hi, sue:

I am sorry, but this hand-waiving is totally unconvincing, especially the part about...well, it is OK to have syndesmophytes in Udiff...ugh--as long as they are not BRIDGING SYNDESMOPHYTES..!!! That is just too illogical.

After reading this, I am MORE CONVINCED that Udiff is just another variety of AS. AS does not always cause such severe pains, and there are more people with AS who will end up fused and not know why (they never needed a diagnosis), but there is the other side of the same coin--plenty of people will have the pain, but never fuse. This is the part that is due to genetic variations; not "how many names can humans pin on a disease process of fusion by the nanometer?"

I suspected Crohn's and AS were just about the same disease, while I was observing a good friend with this disease, and I followed symptoms behind her by about two years. Well, it is the same CAUSE and mechanism on the Klebsiella-continuum; now I have added another one: I'm differentiated!

HEALTH,
John
Posted By: disk Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/16/11 12:02 PM
why does chest expansion restriction start early on? if the fusing is not there why does it feel tough to pull in a breath? due to inflammation? so if the inflammation goes down with NSAIDS would the full breath come back? how should chest expansion be maintained and increased?
Posted By: Sue22 Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/16/11 05:38 PM
not completely sure where the disagreement is? you say undiff spondy, IBD are other forms of AS. the webMD says undiff spondy, AS, IBD, are different forms of spondyloarthropathy. the venn diagram shows large areas of overlap with AS in the middle. so rather than seeing the differences, i see the similarities. other than webMD calling them all spondyloarthropathies and you calling them all AS, i'm not sure how what you are saying and what webMD is saying as being a whole lot different. if i were to add my opinion, i'd say i couldn't disagree with either of you, i see more similarities than differences.



i'm going to pick up this conversation in another thread so this one can focus on costochondritis. want to share about my new in town rheumy.......
Posted By: cemc Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/16/11 09:26 PM
Disk, I still don't have a diagnosis, have some changes on SI xray (sclerosis/erosions, but the radiologist says not typical of sacroiliitis) but have enormous problems with rib pain and very poor chest expansion (often only half an inch, and never more than an inch). I've also had the costochondritis type pains for many years along with the reduced chest expansion.

My way of dealing with it is to take NSAIDs at full therapeutic levels (its definitely worse if I don't take them), and I have also learned how to do deep tummy breathing (yoga breathing). I'm so good at getting a full lungful of air by doing the tummy breathing that when I first complained about chest wall pain and they did lung function tests they came back totally normal, in spite of the poor chest exansion. The only time I have real problems is when I get a cold/flu and a cough with it - I just can't cough well at all, so it does mean that gunk builds up in my lungs much easier and is much harder to get rid of. Luckily I don't get colds that often.
Posted By: DragonSlayer Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/16/11 11:39 PM
Hi, disk:


Chest expansion is restricted by the intercostal inflammation when it is difficult and not only painful to breathe; the AS causes a perfusion of lymph at these joints and along the bones (periostitis) in proximity to the joint sacks.

NSAIDs can help reduce inflammation, but also make us unaware of the damage they are allowing (and doing to us), long-term; these are one of the worst choices for "treatment."

To maintain chest expansion: 1) Get out of inflammation (see NSD Forum), 2) Do deep-breathing exercises, and 3) Maintain chest muscle tone either through swimming (best exercise for AS) or weight lifting.

HEALTH,
John
Posted By: ChaCha Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/16/11 11:44 PM
only thing that helps me is to remember to try to sleep flat on my back. I get flare ups when I have been a bit crunched up, sleeping on my side and top shoulder "leans in" (for lack of better word) toward my sternum.
I try to stretch a bit, not sure if that helps or not, it sure hurts though sometimes.
Posted By: disk Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/17/11 04:33 AM
yes...medicine still needs to evolve to clinch things faster. my upper back stiffness started may last year...and started hurting ribs. no other symptom to date except that i have had eye swelling a few times over the last six to seven years which the doc said is not uveitis. b 27 + of course.
now i am having trouble taking deep breaths...breathing seems shallow. it gets locked at the half way point and i feel a pull in my back muscles, mostly the right trapezius towards the arm when i try to pull in a breath. when i lie down then i can sometimes pull in a deep full breath. this trouble was not there before and has started off ever since i got worried about AS and started doing exercises like toe touch (straining to touch the toes, which i can), backward stretches, cat pose, hip rotation and a few others. i get the feeling that these exercises have actually made taut muscles or whatever even more taut and now i am unable to breathe easy like i could two months back.
my doc had prescribed medication in july last year which i never took, and after having this breathing issue panicked and started yesterday...
morning: nucoxia MR (etoricoxib 60 mg and thiocolchioside (muscle relaxant) 4 mg)
noon: flexilor - P ( lornoxicam 8 mg and paracetamol 500 mg)
evening: zandik ( tizanidine 2 mg, diclofenac potassium 50 mg and paracetamol 500 mg)
for now it hasnt relieved the breathing...i am only three doses down yet...sometimes i can pull in a deep breath, mostly i am not liking it.
interestingly i went to a person well known here for helping people with stiffness, pain etc by giving them a quick massage of say 2 or 3 minutes with his fingers probing for muscle stiffness. when i went to him yesterday evening, he did the massage and picked out a muscle in my back and said this is causing trouble...he gave it a massage and for the next hour or so, my breathing was easy and deep...and then again it got tight. he said all you have is taut muscles, but as my dad says...maybe the AS is causing taut muscles and manipulation does ease for a while , but the tautness comes back on.
another thing i noticed is since yesterday when i took the muscle relaxers and the meds i have stated above...for the first time i felt my knees paining...do MR's release tendons and maybe cause pain to emerge or something.
i guess we are such complex bio-machines that we require a billion combinations and permutations to make us work...one reordered equation can cause a hundred others to re balance!
i know it sounds crazy and repetitive, but my mind goes on thinking...what is wrong with me? is it just me making myself fall sick by thinking about it over and over again. do i really have AS? is it just a pulled muscle group in my back? my esr, crp is all normal. what the heck is this? docs these days are too busy really to spend time and answer your queries and doubts and get bugged in any case when they get the feel that this guy has read up on the internet and is quizzing them...they want patients to just take their word and get on with it...not to blame them, they work more in a day than i do in three days i guess.
the moment i tell a specialist: pain in upper back and shoulders more than 10 months, chest stiffness and restricted expansion, b27 +...they take two seconds to say : AS.
earlier i used to worry about AS, now i say...just make my breathing deep and easy and full...changing goals!
Posted By: Sue22 Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/17/11 05:30 AM
sounds like how i felt when this all started. i "injured" my rhomboid (muscle and/or tendon) early on and that complicated things for awhile; initially doctors just labeled it as localized myofacial pain syndrome.

i was lucky to find a very good manual physical therapist. maybe you can find a good PT to help you.

for me, it is inflammation at the entheses (i've had my share of tendonitises and a few torn tendons as well). for me, the muscles spasm in response to the inflammation in the tendons and ligaments at the entheses. so ultimately for me, getting the inflammation under control is key. however, working on the muscles as well helps. one kinda helps the other in my experience. i've been on zanaflex since 2001 and it not only helps my muscles, but once i started taking it, my tendons felt better too. i still notice it, like this past week, when i took the zanaflex, not only were my calves not so tight, but my plantar fasciitis was better as well. for me, the muscle relaxant is only helpful.

when my muscle spasms are bad, activity does make them worse. the PT had to get my muscles out of crisis mode before they could tolerate (strengthening) exercises.

i also found a physiatrist (dr of physical / rehabilitative medicine) to be even more useful in determining the root of the problem. my physiatrists were the doctors to send me to rheumatology. the ones that recognized it was inflammatory arthritis. and the ones that could tell it was not a number of other things that they saw and worked with every day.

if yours is also inflammatory in nature, then a good rheumatologist too. it took me several tries. it can be a tricky thing when everything is so involved that its hard to see what is causing what. for me, things had to be settled down a bit first before we could determine cause and effect. the PT and physiatrist helped me get to that point. a good rheumatologist probably could as well, i think there are multiple paths to the same end point.
Posted By: disk Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/17/11 06:07 AM
hey dragonslayer!

is there a test for anti klebsiella antibody or is it just a usual IgA test? my esr, crp is all normal..no radiographic changes, upper back pain and chest stiffness, once in a while left eye inflammation (said to be non uveitis). age of onset of symptoms 36.

best
Posted By: SJLC Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/17/11 06:48 AM
For the last few years, weekly physical therapy has been a big part of my solution to deep breathing and especially sneezing pains. Sometimes I start to hold back a sneeze, throwback from all those years when it would set off pain and spasming... but now it's not a problem!

Then when I started strict NSD, my physical therapist started noticing that my ribs don't tend to crack as much, like they're not even trying to fuse anymore. So that was the 2nd part of my solution, thanks in large part to Dragonslayer for raising awareness of Ebringer's diet studies.
Posted By: disk Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/17/11 09:55 AM
does the tummy breathing cause any problem in lung position? i ask because i met a serious AS sufferer the other day and his lungs had moved into his belly area as they just couldn't expand in the thoracic area. he was telling me that one should try and blow air into a football bladder with a tight strap around your belly to prevent lungs from trying to make space there...what does that sound like? and hey ...how long have you been having the aches and pains?
Posted By: DragonSlayer Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/17/11 10:46 AM
Hey, disk:

Regret the IgA-Kp test has not been commercialized and it looks more and more as if it will never become a standard test.

It is not unusual for ESR and CRP to be within normal ranges, despite increased symptoms. Your age of onset is not uncommon for women, but just a little late for men; AS is quite different between genders.

HEALTH,
John
Posted By: disk Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/17/11 03:43 PM
Thanks John...

Trying to slowly work my way into the NSD diet...in our part of the world...the older generation has always said...dont eat soft flour products...eat hard grain flour and always chew it to almost liquid in the mouth (made me now think of what we were taught in school...that saliva breaks up starches into simpler sugars in the mouth itself and digestion begins there)...now i think maybe chewing chapattis (wheat pancakes eaten in india) much more in the mouth would break starch into simpler sugars and not leave much to pass on as food for klebsiella...it might not alleviate AS but maybe for many in th eolder generation it kept things at bay for just that little bit longer. the food that we eat today was unimaginable five decades back...it was actually more of an LSD diet then and now it is a hyper starch diet worldwide! phew!
Posted By: MollyC1i Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/18/11 06:26 AM
Disc - Hi, welcome. Just a briefie at the moment as I must leave soon for my 7 hr train trip to go for my rheumy appt.

Stretching is the best way possible to deal with the chest constriction. There are very 'specific' exercises that noe can do. Check out the NASS site: National Ankylosing Spondylitis Society (UK) and SAA, Spondylitis Association America. They both carry stretching exercises that you can follow. Other than that. Ask your rheumy to advise you of a phyaio T, who is conversant 'with' AS. It is also possible that you may find a hospital near to you that holds AS/RA exercise classes. But, the chest expansion exercises are crucial to keeping those chest walls as expanded as possible - without them and good breathing one ocld end up with COPD and other lung problems.

You might also find that you can goodle up exercises varous. Don't have time at this moment to check out and by the time I return this thread might have disappeared...

Wish you well - and, don't worry about it and don't try to overstretch. Pain and 'no gain' aint what spondy exercises and stretching is about. *Never go over the pain threshold and *Never try tp push the body. Can end up hurting yourself.

Go well - OK. Gotta run ---->> ---->>
Posted By: DragonSlayer Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/18/11 06:51 AM
Hi, sue:

I see Your point, and perhaps I was unclear: I would prefer a more useful classification so that when the germ-cause of AS is accepted universally, "other diseases" with the same cause can also be identified.

The problem for me was ignorance (well my own but also rheumatologists)--and for example I have "arthritis" so I got this book by Giraud Campbell and sure enough he was treating patients with Marie-Strumpell's using diet, but I could have been swayed NOT to do his regimen if I would have believed that one person's AS is not the same as another's; it gave me an opportunity to slide.

Today, I know how illogical it is to pretend that AS has many different causes, but I WANTED to believe it, much to my detriment. But also, I am looking for and at other diseases with the same underlying cause, and these are myriad.

So we cannot call it "B27 Disease" because that is just not right and too restrictive, and perhaps I want to call all forms of spondyloarthropies "Klebsiella-Reactive Arthritides," but I am looking for exceptions and just eliminated Uspa or Udiff; the list is growing.

We each manifest AS differently, but the cause of AS, Reiter's (long-term), Crohn's Disease, and Udiff is the same, even in canines.

Best to You,
John
Posted By: disk Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/19/11 02:31 AM
john, i would have thought that after almost three decades of the theory of molecular mimicry and the klebsiella link, science would have moved ahead to make drugs that would eliminate klebsiella and make their cultures in the bowel impossible...what is so smart about klebsiella that we dont see a drug that kills it off and keeps it that way... wouldn't that be simpler and far more effective that a life of NSD?
Posted By: Sue22 Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/19/11 04:20 AM
in that case, you're talking about an antibiotic or vaccine. novel antibiotic targets or vaccine research for even pathogens like tb, mrsa, etc are few and far between; more research needs to be done on these for sure.

plus klebsiella: 1. is more similar to other good bacteria in our gut like e. coli and 2. drug resistance is on the rise. throw in that broad spectrum drugs would wipe out both the good and bad bacteria, and you can see how challenging the research is.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC88898/?tool=pmcentrez

plus there is very little money in antibiotic research in general, thus big pharma has phased out most of this research and it is being done at the smaller biotech companies and through academia.

i know a little about this because my field of research is discovering and characterizing novel antibiotic targets, focussed more on tb and staph areus, specially focussed on two enzyme families, but follow the field in general.

not to say i disagree with you, because i don't. just stating why more antibacterial research does not take place, why its such a challenge to find novel antibiotics toward novel antibiotic targets. but some of us are working on it.

currently some people are going both the diet and antibiotic route; i'm sure you've read dragonslayers and others posts about this. but broad spectrum antibiotics are tricky as we need our good bacterial microflora. i think the trick will be antibacterials aimed specifically at klebsiella's novel virulence factors, as suggested in the linked paper.
Posted By: Sue22 Re: Any costochondritis tricks or tips? - 04/19/11 04:23 AM
thanks john,

see your point better now. smile

when my new rheumy said, "i believe all spondyloarthropathies start in the gut.", i thought of you and your various posts. and his approach to treating me is based on that philosophy.
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