Posted By: kawasakiguy37 Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? - 03/13/12 01:10 AM
Although I do not own Carol Sinclair's book I have gone through Erginger's papers and dont see any info looking specifically at resistant starch versus simple starches - which would be highly valuable information.

Simple starches are essentially just medium glycemic index sugars and could easily be feeding something like klebsiella (or other gut pathogen). Any undigested sugars such as glucose, fructose, etc, would of course provide the ideal fermentable material for klebsiella, and I know that many avoid lactose for this reason.

However both RS1 and RS2 (found in beans, etc) provide an excellent fermentable substrate for the production of butyrate and other beneficial SCFAs - acids that would in theory INHIBIT klebsiella growth.

Now in normally healthy individuals it has been proven that both RS1 and RS2 provide a fiber like component to the diet and can make a huge improvement in "gut permeability." Klebsiella in the gut alone should not produce an immune response as it would never enter the bloodstream - and in addition RS provides an almost ideal slowly digesting way to increase liver and muscle glycogen levels as well as supporting NADPH recycling of glutathione (our primary antioxidant).

Does anyone know if resistant starch is specifically been studied in its contribution to AS? I have no problem giving up simple starches and sugars, but resistant starch along with foods high in vitamin K has totally cleared up my intestinal issues and I would rather keep them in my diet if possible.
Posted By: jroc Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? - 03/13/12 01:46 AM
excellent points and one of the main reasons why I don't personally employ starch restriction to treat AS. i did far better AS wise on a vegetarian diet high in resistant starch and soluble fibre than I did when experimenting with a low starch, higher fat diet. everyone responds differently to different diets so find out what works for you.

the only thing that has been studied involving starch and AS was a 9month dietary trial on 36 AS patients that were instructed to increase their intake of Red Meat, White Meat, Fish, Beans & Peas, Nuts, Vegetables & Salads, Milk, Fruit and reduce their intake of Bread, Potatoes, Chips, Rice, Spaghetti, Cereals, Cakes, Biscuits. the ESR of patients decreased by an average of 14mm/hr and there was a significant decrease in serum IgA. starch restriction may have been responsible for the improvement but there are also many other variables that are changed by following those guidelines which makes it impossible based on this study alone to conclude that specifically reducing starch intake improves AS symptoms. it can however be concluded that following those specific dietary guidelines has been shown to lead to an improvement of inflammatory markers and symptoms in AS patients and that changing diet can have a significant impact AS symptoms. since the patients were instructed to increase consumption of beans and peas then it could even be argued that an increased intake of resistant starch and soluble fibre were responsible for some of the improvements seen.

Posted By: lar84 Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? - 03/13/12 10:34 PM
I would like to test this theory out. Can you give examples or simple vs resistant?

Sure Lauren. Something like black beans would be higher in resistant starch - mainly RS2 I believe (there are RS1, RS2, and RS3)

Something like a sweet potatoe or russet potatoe has a mix of both - it really depends on the variety

Been eating a lot of sprouted beans lately and Ive been feeling great - Ive eliminated most other starchy sources though from my diet (with the exception of some types of squash/yam)

Im thinking the real key here is any sugar that gets to the end of the small intestine undigested - which would be highly dependent on the person and their gut flora
Posted By: Philsta Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? - 03/14/12 09:34 AM

I would love to be able to eat more beans.. I have thus far avoided them becausde I thought they were starchy.

Actually now that I looked at Edbringer's study ( here ) again, beans and peas are listed on the 'Increase' side of his table.
Posted By: Alinus Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? - 03/14/12 11:52 AM
Ebringer recomended LSD - low starch diet. beans are allowed on LSD.
I am now thinking that people with HLAB27 may have a deficiency at digesting certain starches, leading to an ideal substrate for klebsiella (or similar) to thrive on. This combined with gut permeability could explain why we are seeing so many antibodies in the blood in AS patients.

Hopefully RS would avoid this - I would theorize that SDS (slowly digesting starch) is the culprit, as RDS (rapidly digestested starch) seems to be fairly easily broken down by most.

While reducing total starch would of course temporarily help these symptoms (by not giving klebsiella something to feed on), in the long run it would not solve the inherent problem of intestinal wall permeability as it seems RS is a key component in production of butyrate and other essential SCFA's that protect the lining of the colon and allow it to heal.

For those interested in learning more about Resistant Starch (the third form, digests much slower than SDS):

*Also I'd like to point out that I am NOT a doctor and this is all just part of my personal efforts in improving quality of life*
Posted By: Alinus Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? - 03/14/12 10:37 PM
there are other sources for butyrate production and NSD is ok with providing them. unfortunately i'm not at the PC where i've saved the data, if i did save it at all. but i've spent some time over this, since i have UC, and gut healing is a major and constant concern with me.

back with this link - just a fast search on google:

so you have to increase your fiber...

nuts, fruits, veggies, butter ... all can comply with NSD. No need for starch intake if you wanna increase your fiber...
Posted By: Pea Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? - 03/14/12 10:55 PM
You guy's this is a great post! Thank you!
Many of the substances they list for having dietary fiber that increases butyrate production also has RS - While things like Oat Bran have lots of fiber, they have been shown to not produce large amounts of butyrate:

So I think RS (or some other high butyrate producing fiber) could really benefit the sufferers of AS and inflammatory bowel related disorders.

This article is a goldmine:

They list two possible high butyrate produers:

Roseburia intestinalis
Faecalibacterium prausnitzii

Interestingly enough low levels of F. Prausnitzii are associated with Crohns

R. Intestinalis can ferment glucose, arabinose, cellobiose,
maltose, fructose, raffinose, sucrose, xylose,
xylan and starch:

Looks like long-chain inulin is also butyrogenic:
Posted By: Alinus Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? - 03/15/12 09:11 PM
Originally Posted By: kawasakiguy37

So I think RS (or some other high butyrate producing fiber) could really benefit the sufferers of AS and inflammatory bowel related disorders.

well, if you think so, there's not better way to test it than on yourself isnt'it?
Posted By: lar84 Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? - 03/19/12 12:30 PM
Where do Lima beans rank on this? I ate a boatload last night and now I'm worried! There are many things I can resist, but not My Mama's Lima Beans, and last night I failed miserably at restraining myself...eek! Trying not to worry until it hits me if at all (hoping to God I'm in remission!)
so how'd them lima beans go?
Posted By: lar84 Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? - 03/24/12 03:28 AM
Sunnypower, no reaction!! I was stoked. Not sure yet if I'm in remission or they just dont bother me. My mama is a southern cook, so there was a ton of butter and pepper. I think I eliminated them as soon as I woke up the next morning and my mama says she's thinks it's probably due to the butter. Maybe I eliminated them so quickly it didn't cause a reaction? I don't know but I will be trying them again soon!
Posted By: lar84 Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? - 03/27/12 12:06 AM
Tried them again last night and again a small portion for lunch today. No reaction at all as of yet. Excited at the possibility of adding Lima/butter beans back.
Posted By: lar84 Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? - 03/28/12 12:24 PM
Ok, bad news. I think I just got lucky with the first encounter of lima beans. Maybe a week later was too soon? Right after lunch yesterday it hit me hard. God, flares suck so bad! I almost forgot how miserable they are!

My hypothesis is that if you haven't eaten any starches in a really long time, one starchy serving won't kill you the first time. But a week later having it again is probably too soon and the klebs have built up just so that another serving that close together will cause a reaction. I don't know...but I do know I'll be fasting all day until dinner. That should get me mostly out of this funk.
Hows the lectin content (and what type of lectin) with Lima beans? Could also be aggravating your level of inflammation.

On another note I'm adding sunchokes / artichokes / chicory into my diet in order to try and stimulate butyrate production without consuming any form of starch. These three foods contain high levels of long-chain inulin which has been shown to be equal to RS in producing butyrate (short chain seems to do nothing - like the kind they fortify yogurt with).

Also you may want to try getting non GMO dried beans and sprouting first - supposedly many GMO beans have been bred for higher lectin content (this is what is toxic in uncooked kidney beans) in order to help them keep longer. Some lectins have been implicated (there are many types) in gut permeability and systemic inflammation.

Sprouting and fermenting beans further reduces lectin content as well as simple starches.
This article, rather detailled, might interesst you .Click on the link.

Sceintific paper about resistant starch
Posted By: acorp Re: Simple Starch versus Resistant Starch? - 03/11/16 09:16 PM
Hi Kawasakiguy37 - I'm just curious to hear how your diet has evolved, along with your research? Would love to hear more about it! Thank you!