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Joined: Mar 2003
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sal Offline
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Hi Jill,

I'm a new member too. I've had so many encouraging and helpful posts from everyone. They've made me feel so welcome. Just wanted to answer your question about the sacroilliac joint. It is sort of like your hip joint. I get pain in my SI joint and sometimes it radiates up my back and down my legs and sometimes it's hard to get around.

It took me three doctors, two physios and a chiropractors to diagnose me. If you don't feel as if you are able to speak to your rheumotologist maybe you could find one that you feel comfortable with. But if you want to stay with this Dr maybe if he asks how you are when you first see him, you could tell them about the pain then.

If you are having SI pain I find physio quite helpful on bad days, especially the TENS machine which is like electric currents that stimulate your muscles.

Goodluck

Sal



Just diagnosed with AS

Joined: Sep 2001
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Addicted_to_AS_Kickin
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Here is a posting by Evelyn (which again I have shamelessly lifted that gives the various criteria for a DX of spondylarthropy/AS. What many women get for years is something called undifferentiated spondylarthropy, as women tend to fuse later in life than men, and it is often not DXed correctly simply because rheumies are not looking for it. You might copy this and take it with you,or make your own list, not suggest a DX to the doc but if the criteria fit, then list it, at the very least it will help separate out the docs from the quacks.


The term spondyloarthropathy is an umbrella term for a family of conditions which includes ankylosing spondylitis, certain forms of psoriatic arthritis, enteropathic arthritis (arthritis associated with inflammatory bowel disease), reactive arthritis/Reiter's syndrome (arthritis associated with a known or likely preceding infection of the genitourinary tract or the intestinal tract) and "undifferentiated' spondyloarthropathy.

There are two sets of established criteria in the medical literature for the diagnosis of ankylosing spondylitis. These are the ROME criteria and the NEW YORK criteria. For the definite diagnosis of ankylosing spondylitis according to established criteria, there generally needs to be evidence of sacroiliac/spine changes on xray exam. Changes to the xray exam may not occur until relatively late in the disease process, so early AS may not be found by these "AS" criteria.

There are also criteria for the diagnosis of spondyloarthropathy that do not necessarily require evidence for changes on xray. Again there are two sets of established criteria in the medical literature for the diagnosis of spondyloarthropathy. These are the ESSG criteria (European Spondyloarthropathy Study Group) and the AMOR criteria. So someone with early AS can be given a diagnosis of spondyloarthropathy which may then evolve into definite AS in later years. If a person with spondyloarthropathy has associated psoriasis, then they have psoriatic arthritis. If a person with spondyloarthropathy has associated inflammatory bowel disease such as Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis, then they have enteropathic arthritis. If a person with spondyloarthropathy has good evidence of known or likely preceding infection just prior to the onset of joint pain, then they have reactive arthritis/Reiter's. If a person with spondyloarthropathy does not have features of psoriasis, inflammatory bowel disease, or evidence of preceding urinary tract or intestinal tract infection, then they would have undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy. ANY OF THESE SPONDYLOARTHROPATHIES CAN EVOLVE INTO AS, BUT DO NOT ALWAYS DO SO.

ROME criteria FOR ANKYLOSING SPONDYLITIS:
Rome criteria (1961): Diagnosis of AS when any clinical criteria present with bilateral sacroiliitis [by X-ray] grade 2 or higher
1. Low back pain and stiffness for >3 months which is not relieved by rest
2. Pain and stiffness in the thoracic region
3. Limited motion in the lumbar spine
4. Limited chest expansion
5. History of uveitis

Rome criteria from:
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic2700.htm#target5


NEW YORK criteria FOR ANKYLOSING SPONDYLITIS:
New York criteria (1984 ): Definite AS when the fourth or fifth criterion mentioned [Xray changes] presents with any clinical criteria:
[A. Clinical criteria]
1. Low back pain with inflammatory characteristics
2. Limitation of lumbar spine motion in sagittal and frontal planes
3. Decreased chest expansion
[B. X-ray criteria]
4. Bilateral sacroiliitis grade 2 or higher [by X-Ray]
5. Unilateral sacroiliitis grade 3 or higher [by X-Ray]

New York criteria found here:
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic2700.htm#target5

MODIFIED NEW YORK criteria FOR ANKYLOSING SPONDYLITIS
Bilateral sacroiliitis [on xray], grade 2-4, or unilateral sacroiliitis [on xray], grade 3-4 and any one of the following three clinical criteria:
1. Low back pain of at least three months duration improved by exercise and not relieved by rest
2. Limitation of lumbar spine motion in sagittal and frontal planes.
3. Chest expansion decreased relative to normal values for age and sex.
Modified New York criteria found here http://www.medal.org/docs_ch22/doc_ch22.21.html#A22.21.05

ADDITIONAL DESCRIPTION OF criteria FOR DIAGNOSIS OF AS
The diagnostic criteria for ankylosing spondylitis.
1. Limitation of motion of the lumbar spine in all three planes: anterior flexion, lateral flexion, extension.
2. History of pain in the lumbar spine or at the dorso-lumbar junction.
3. Limited chest expansion to 2.5 cm or less, measured at the fourth intercostal line.
4. sacroiliitis on xray of the sacroiliac joints.
The sacroiliitis is graded on radiological criteria:
Grade 0: normal.
Grade 1: suspicious.
Grade 2: minimal abnormality, small areas of erosions or sclerosis, without alteration of joint width.
Grade 3: definite abnormality- moderate or advanced sacroiliitis with irregularity, one or more erosions, evidence of sclerosis. Partial ankylosis
Grade 4: total ankylosis.

Definite ankylosing spondylitis:
Grade 3-4 sacroiliitis with at least one clinical criterion.
Or grade 3-4 unilateral or grade 2 bilateral sacroiliitis, with clinical criterion 1 or criterion 2 and 3.

Probable ankylosing spondylitis: Grade 3-4 sacroiliitis without any clinical criteria.
This set of criteria for AS is from "Drdoc" website:
http://www.arthritis.co.za/ankspond.html

ESSG (EUROPEAN SPONDYLOARTHROPATHY STUDY GROUP) criteria FOR THE DIAGNOSIS OF SPONDYLOARTHROPATHY:
Inflammatory spinal pain OR synovitis, assymetric, predominant in lower limbs AND one of the following:
1. positive family history
2. inflammatory bowel disease
3. urethritis, cervicitis or acute diarrhea within one month before arthritis
4. buttock pain alternating between right and left gluteal areas
5. enthesopathy
6. sacroiliitis

ESSG criteria can be found here:
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic2700.htm#target4
and here:
http://www3.utsouthwestern.edu/cme/endurmat/lipsky/alg_apdx/app_p.htm See section 2A

AMOR criteria FOR THE DIAGNOSIS OF SPONDYLOARTHROPATHY
A. PAST OR CURRENT CLINICAL MANIFESTATIONS:
1. Back pain at night and/or back stiffness in the morning=one point
2. asymmetric oligoarthritis=two points
3. gluteal pain without other details=one point OR alternating gluteal pain=two points
4. sausage like digit or toe=two points
5. heel pain or other enthesopathy=two points
6. iritis=two points
7. non-gonococcal urethritis or cervicitis within 1 month before the onset of arthritis=one point
8. diarrhea within one month before onset of arthritis=one point
9. past or current psoriasis and/or balanitis and/or inflammatory bowel disease=two points
B. XRAY CHANGES
10. sacroiliitis (stage 2 or above if bilateral, more than stage 2 if unilateral):three points
C. PREDISPOSING GENETIC FACTORS
11. Presence of the HLA B27 antigen and/or positive family history for ankylosing spondylitis: two points
D. RESPONSIVENESS TO TREATMENT
12. Improvement within 48 hours after initiation of a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug: one point
Patients with a total score of six points or more are classified as having a spondyloarthropathy.

Amor criteria found in:
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic2700.htm#target4
and here:
http://www3.utsouthwestern.edu/cme/endurmat/lipsky/alg_apdx/app_p.htm] see section 2B

FLOWCHART FOR DIAGNOSIS OF SPONDYLOARTHROPATHY from MA Khan article:
http://merck.praxis.md/images/cpm/RH/390-03.jpg
from
http://merck.praxis.md/bpm/bpm.asp?page=CPM02RH390§ion=report&ss=2

print version of report:
http://merck.praxis.md/bpm/bpmviewall.asp?page=CPM02RH390

Cheryl








Dogs don't care if the house is clean


My guy If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. Author Unknown
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sal Offline
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Hi Jill,

My last answer was a bit wrong abount where the SI joint is. I meant to say its near the hip joint. It is actually between the sacrum (which is the lower part of your spine) and the illiac (which forms your pelvis).

Sorry if I confused you

Sal :)

Just diagnosed with AS

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jill Offline OP
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Thanks for that,I will take your advice.Hopefully now he has done nerve conduction tests and they showed I havent got carpal tunnel he might listen to my other symptoms!


Jill


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jill Offline OP
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Hi,Thanks for reply.The pain seems to be in the sacrum area raidiating downwards and outwards.

Jill


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jill Offline OP
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Hi,Thanks for info.I get a bit confused with my symptoms because yes I am stiff in mornings but not always is it bad.Also I am worse if I sit about and do nothing thats why I am trying to keep working but sometimes if I over do it I get a lot of pain like I have suffered this week.Is this normal?

Jill


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For all those that worry about being annoying or posting questions that they think are silly..... an old chinese proverb:

"One who asks a question is a fool for 5 minutes: One who does not ask a question remains a fool forever."

ANON4NOW

"Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mystery but today is a gift, that's why it's THE PRESENT"



ANON4NOW When was the last time you did something for the first time?
Joined: Sep 2001
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Hi Jill,

Welcome to the KickAS family. I wish I could be of help but I just changed to a new Rheumy and am having to go through all the tests and questions all over again. My first Rheumy DX'd me at age 31 with AS. From all the paperwork my new Rheumy said that the old Rheumy made a wrong DX. So for 6 months or so I have been going through extensive blood tests, x-rays and nuclear bone scans. I had to cancel my appointment with the new Rheumy last week because of all other kinds of medical problems.

You have to learn to be forceful with DRs. I had to learn that the hard way. I sometimes feel like I am a lawyer and having to state my case to the DR. Make sure you keep your list with you and keep going back to it if your DR ignores you. I have a wonderful GP who will not only answer all my questions but read my list and answer all question. Just glad that I didn't have my pad open to my grocery list.

Good luck with your next appointment, welcome again and take care,

Lisa

P.S. You are not a bother at all. Ask away...that is what we are here for

KickAS is more than a support group...it is a family!




[align center] KickAS is more than a support group...it is a family! [/align]<br>[align center] [/align]
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Yep, normal, for us AS folks anyway It's stiffness that improves with movement and gets worse if we don't move, unlike OA, which doesn't improve with movement, only hurts more. And in a flare back in the days before I finally found a med that worked I would be really, really stiff and sore in the mornings. Then the flare would subside and it wouldn't be as bad, and I'd wonder if I had over imagined the pain -- until the next flare, of course. Do you have trouble standing for long periods of time, as in a line? Do you get sore sitting in the same position for long periods of time, traveling, flying, or at work?

I agree about fibro, do not let them pin this one on you if you can help it. Some doctors believe it is a real illness, others think it's female hysteria manifesting itself in pseudo-pains in the body, but I don't think the medical establishment as a whole takes it very seriously. Many of us here got the fibro DX along the way to getting the AS DX, and they don't really treat fibro - - there isn't any real treatment for it. Whereas if you have a DX of AS there are several new drugs out there (disease modifiers) that for many people (me included) have stopped AS in its tracks.

Cheryl

Dogs don't care if the house is clean


My guy If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague. Author Unknown
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jill Offline OP
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Thanks I will remember that! Its nice to be able to talk about symptoms here without feeling that your becoming boring ect.I try not to tell to many people when I am suffering but people who really care notice!

Jill


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