Kickas.org Forums Ankylosing Spondylitis General Discussion #1 AS Web Support Group discussion with DragonSlayer (DO NOT READ!)

Anyone here like buttered scones?

I like a little preserve on mine too..!!

lol. this thread is going nowhere to be sure and neither side will be swayed. Too entrenched.

Strawberry preserves?

Rasberry is good too. where Wendy comes from they have butter, Jam (we call it) and fresh cream on their scones and usually more often on their faces......yes I agree, buttered scones seem more reasonable than our protagonists tonight...lol

Before Hamilton and Burr go at it again, I just want to interject a couple more thoughts.

1. jroc, I really enjoy your posts and you share a lot of great insight to the discussion. That is a sincere compliment. It's clear you've studied a lot on the material and that you can make a compelling argument. However...

2. If there is one thing that we can all agree on is the fact that this disease is miserable. If John goes out of his way to make people aware of dietary treatments of AS on the SAA forums, and if a couple of souls manage to benefit from the information he dispenses, regardless of whether the molecular mimicry theory is right or not, that's a pretty darn amazing thing. No?

3. On cranks and pseudoscience... Yes, there is a crap load of bad info on the internet and especially in the alternative medicine field. That being said, for some of the alternative medicine disciplines, there are some very good practicioners out there. I had a constant pain in my rhomboid for years and no doctor could explain what was going on. I finally gave up and saw a chiropractor and he matter-of-factly said that I had a rib out, and popped in back into place. It was a tremendous relief. The point being is that if we limited treatment to 'conventional' methodologies, I believe we would be limiting the set of effective tools we have to manage this disease. (I do strongly agree that its pretty much caveat emptor every time you elect to pursue alternative treatments...)

Secondly, while science remains man's greatest achievements, it does have limits. Science is predicated on what we can observe and is limited to how complex the models used are. The human body is so amazingly complicated, that we probably don't understand how everything links together. Sure, we know more today than we did yesterday, but it's not like science gives us all the answers.

There's a saying that there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Virtually any study can be manipulated to support a given conclusion. While there are mechanisms in place to mitigate that (e.g. peer review), it is not immune to faulty conclusions. So regardless of whether I read something on the internet, or something from the Harvard Medical Journal, I take everything with a grain of salt. What is judged to be right today, could be proven wrong tomorrow as we continue to advance our understanding of the human body.

4. You have noble interests in seeking to protect those who do not dig deeper to understand the risks/reward trade-off in evaluating various modalities. But if you think about it, the people who are most likely to blindly follow crazy advice are those who are less compelled to read a scientific treatise on why XYZ treatment is a bad idea. By sounding off on a theory that you don't agree with, you actually may be hurting your chances at influencing your target audience. This would be a shame, because what you are trying to do is important and helpful for the community.

Anyhoo, back to the regularly scheduled program.

Hijacker! Scones are the very cause of such debates.
Besides, the instructions say DO NOT READ!
You've made several infarctions herein.

does this include the studies where large percentages of AS patients had no culturable klebsiella in stool, no raised antibodies to klebsiella, and there was no difference in disease activity between klebsiella positive and klebsiella negative patients?

i just reread the 'The Use of a Low Starch Diet in the Treatment of Patients Suffering from Ankylosing Spondylitis' paper and could not find any mention of controlling for any dietary variables or even measuring starch intake. can you provide a link to the “Etiopathogenesis…” paper or provide some quotes from it?

would you care to elaborate on how it explains gender differences and fusing.

i happened to read the original before admin made you change it. i actually thought it was some of the more creative vitriolic prose that you have come up with and i would have been happy for it to stay as the original version.

i plead guilty to the charge of taking the quote out of context.

can you provide references or some other way to back up that statement other than "i just made it up".

i would love to make a wager. if Ebringer's klebsiella molecular mimicry theory as the cause of all cases of AS ever makes the transition from speculative theory to scientific fact, i will run naked from new york to los angeles wearing a sign around my neck saying 'i was wrong, all hail lord dragonslayer'. what will you be putting up for your half of the wager?

as you may have noticed, in this thread i have repeatedly stated that i am arguing against claims that "all cases of AS are caused by klebsiella via molecular mimicry". if you want to claim that AS is caused by "bowel or even other germs" then i am in complete agreement. i would even join hands around the campfire for a rousing chorus of kumbaya.

thanks

agreed

as i stated here - "i salute John for bringing the attention of diet and AS to thousands of AS patients who have derived significant benefit from it."

couldn't agree more. but for every chris kresser there are a hundred jack kruse's. one of the main reasons why pseudoscientists get on my nerves is because they give the entire alternative medicine field a bad name and put people off from experimenting with alternative approaches that have genuine merit.

agreed. i use scientific method and research to evaluate scientific theories because i think it is an appropriate method to use in those situations. in other aspects of health and life these methods are not applicable. as you point out, despite many fantastic achievements and progress we still only have a limited understanding of how many complex biological phenomena interact so i think we should be particularly skeptical of overly simplistic theories.

a good point there. i'm not sure how to help those people.

that may be true but i believe that sorting fact from fiction is essential if our knowledge and understanding is to progress and lead to the development of better treatments, whether they be alternative or conventional.

cripes.................I humbly apologise to Jroc and the Dragon for daring to toss a scone (hopefully starch free) into the debate........It was not my intention to hi-jack this thread , merely to provide sustenance to the two wearied factions.........I humbly submit my resignation from the KA Cake Club and promise never to enter a thread with a scone ever again................errrr what's your view on Fruit Cake?

no need to apologise. i can't speak for the Dragon but i received some much needed sustenance from the aforementioned scone and it eased my weariness no end (particularly after just being told by the Dragon that I shall have no pie). PS Jroc and the Dragon sounds like a good title for a children's book.

And so it was that jroc entered upon the land of the dragon...........fearful yet prepared, brave though wise, the dragonslayer pressed ever forward.........................the dragon meanwhile had not been idle, his aides had apprised him of the impertinence of jroc and his cause..............the dragon, far from being a fool, smiled ....the game was afoot..............how then to proceed .......


I like fruit cake and chocolate eclairs......and yet remain remarkably slim...!!