Help - Kickas.org

Guys, I'm holding on by a thread right now and really need help dealing with this.

Two weeks ago, my sister called and asked me to look after the girls for a few days. Her boyfriend, she told me, is schizophrenic, but one of those cases where he doesn't know he's sick so he doesn't take his meds. She needed the girls somewhere "sane" so she could do what was necessary to make sure he got treatment, as he'd had some kind of episode and had left the house threatening to take his own life.

They got him into hospital here in Toronto, pending some kind of medical hearing thta would determine his ability to govern his own treatment. He blamed my sister and his father, the police, everybody was against him, as he had no idea why any of this was happening. Although he had my sister removed by security the day of hte hearing, and left instructions that she and his father were not to be told anything, we found out a few days later that he had been deemed mentally unable to govern his treatment. However, he is appealing this ruling and as such was released from hospital last Thursday, two weeks after the initial incident, pending the appeal which could take 3 to 4 months to occur.

Last Monday, my sister called my mother barely able to speak she was crying so hard. Would Mum please drive her to an appointment she'd made with a counsellor, as she couldn't deal with all that was going on. She made another appointment with that psychiatrist for yesterday morning.

This weekend, my sweetie and I went up to stay with Mum and the girls, who were also staying with her so my sister could bring her boyfriend up to pick up some of his belongings to sell and leave the country after his release from hospital on Thursday. She didn't want the girls exposed to him again and she asked that we keep them away from teh house on Saturday as this was when it was all going down.

At 5:46 on Saturday evening, Mum got a call from my youngest niece who was at a friend's house. Her friend had received a phone call from my sister's number. When she picked up, she heard yelling and what sounded to her like a truly bad argument, she thought it was between my sister and her boyfriend. She told my niece, who called Mum.

Mum and I got in the car and drove over to my sister's house. There was no-one there. Mum searched the house, but found no sign. We drove around the neighbourhood for the better part of 45 minutes, in case they'd gone for a walk to talk things out, as they often did this.

We got a call from my sweetie at 6:37 saying that the police had called Mum to let her know my sister was in hospital. We all headed over there and were there within 5 minutes, but there was no information as there had been a shift change and the woman in triage wasn't the woman who saw my sister. My sweetie went to pick my oldest niece up from work. Initially, we didn't want her to come to the hospital, but after we were finally allowed to see my sister, my mother changed her mind. My beautiful sister was hooked up to every monitor they had. She reeked of alcohol and we were told that she had taken an overdose of sleeping medications and was completely unable to communicate. She knew we were there and would nod or try to open her eyes when we spoke to her. The nurse let me look at the bottles, one empty, one about 2/3 empty. They were her boyfriends, both narc based, one of which shuts down the body's motor response. From there, I went out to the waiting room to tell my 14 year old niece what was going on, then held her as she wept.

None of this makes sense. My sister doesn't drink to excess (she might have a cider once a week, or one or two drinks socially), doesn't believe in meds or drugs of any kind. We found out from the constable who interviewed my oldest niece and me that someone had called 911 at about 5:30. When EMS personnel arrived, my sister's boyfriend barred entry to the house. The OPP were called and when they arrived, we are told he fought them to keep them from the house. The OPP gained access and EMS found my sister lying on the bed with a split lip and completey unconscious. Mum and I must have got there within minutes of the ambulance leaving. The boyfriend was in police custody for having interfered with the EMS personnel, but this is not a chargeable offence, so he would be released the followign morning.

Sunday afternoon, Mum got a call from the hospital. They were transferring my sister to a provincial mental health facility for assessment. We had half an hour to get over there so my nieces could see their mother before she was transferred. She would be held for at least 72 hours. When we arrived, the boyfriend was there with a shiny new haircut and a clean white shirt, holding her hand and whispering in her ear. The first instinct that all four of us had, Mum, the girls and me, was to rip his hand away from my sister and bodily eject him from the room. But we didn't, as we didn't want to upset my sister, who seemed completely dependent on him. He's convinced her the police are lying and, I guess, they had coerced the EMS personnel to lie as well. She tried to convince us that they were up in the bedroom with the door closed and music playing when the EMS people arrived, so they didn't hear the knock on the door. It was just a misunderstanding. All of us knew that was not the case. As my youngest niece said, you can hear everything in that house, with or wihtout music playing. There's no way the boyfriend didn't hear them arrive.

We have done everything we can to make sure those in authority know that this is atypical of my sister. We have told everyone we can about the boyfriend's 35 year history with schizophrenia, his paranoid delusions of persecution, the result of the medical hearing, the fact that he doesn't take his meds and is walkign around free pending the appeal. We have made sure they know the facts of Saturday as we know them from teh police, and the fact that he's twisted those facts around in my sister's head. Including calling the doctor at the facility she's been taken to to make sure he knows.

My sweetie and stepdad were told (off the record, I think) by the police on Saturday night that they have records of the boyfriend going back 18 months, since he moved in with mys ister, detailing his paranoid delusions. Teh officer my sweetie was talking to told him the only way to get him out of my sister's life was to convince her that she had to let him go. Their hands are tied, legally, and they can do nothing about it because he has no history of violence against anyone but himself. Teh officer said that it's obvious to them that my sister loves him and thinks she can save him. The word 'intervention' by family was raised as our only option. The girls had been told not to speak of anyting to do with this. We have now made it clear to them that they must talk to us now, because we can't help their mother if we don't know what's been going on. They've begun talking. I think the lies about what happened Saturday night that they heard on Sunday when they saw their mother are what convinced them. Neither of them wants him back in the hosue again. My oldest niece called him a cowardly [**BLEEP**] and my youngest told me she just wanted to rip him limb from limb.

There are no more secrets in our family. Mum and I are making sure of that. I am in the process of putting together the facts as we know them into some kind of logical sequence so that I can write letters to our responsible government officials. The laws need to be changed to protect people from schizophrenics who are allowed to walk free when they refuse to take their meds. there are two recent news stories about people just like this having killed innocent people in the midst of hteir delusions. I never want another family to go through this. To have their hearts broken. I held my mother on Saturday night as she wept, broken hearted, helpless to do anything. Then I went outside and fell apart alone. My sweetie has held me. He's trying to help as best he can, but he's angry about it and hurt by it, just as Mum's husband is. I'm a mess. I'm at work, but I feel like a robot. I can do my job because I know it so well. My sweetie's having acolonoscopy tomorrow, the appliances are being delivered tonight. The hosue is full of dust from teh construction. The plumber's quote is unspeakably high. I just want to be with my family. I can't be there becayuse I have to be here and I'm just holding on. Anger and determination are the only things that keep me functioning right nowj. I can't sit up straight. I can't think straight. I'm just functioning. and I keep seeing my beautiful smart sister on that bed in ER on Saturday night, looking like a baby, incoherent, barely functional. I'll never forget it. It haunts me. I keep hearing my mother weep. I keep seeing my kitten dissolve her beautiful blue eyes spilling over and barely able to hold onto me as she wept. I keep seeing the look of utter disbelief on my elf's face when we told her what had happeend. I keep seeing that boyfriend sitting there holding my sister's hand looking all sorrowful and somber in his clean white shirt and shiny new haircut, while my sister lay there coherent but drugged up and I can't help but think he orchestrated this somehow to get back at her for having him ptu in hostpial two weeks ago.

Help.

Hi Gerr, I didn't see this yesterday or I would have responded. Thank you so much.

Several of you have voiced the fear that my mother, my sweetie, my stepdad and I have. We have no way of knowing exactly how this happened. Mum saw her yesterday and the doctors at the facility have said that they feel this was a spontaneous attempt - ie. there was no thought, just the desire and the action. It's possible, I suppose, especially given what they suspect is an underlying condition. Certainly, they are helping her to understand a lot of what she's experienced throughout her life, and she's happy to be where she is right now, because she recognizes she needs help. Except she's bored stupid. We're working on that. Regardless, they suspect they know what's been going on with my sister, but need to confirm their suspicions.

As for the boyfriend, she loves him so much and now credits him with saving her life. He's her "Hero". Truth be told, I'm grateful to him for making the call. I will never take that away from him. They explain away the EMS personnel incident as they didn't hear the door for a few minutes and then he was trying to run down the stairs while they were trying to run up and since the stairs are narrow, he couldn't get out of the way. It could have happened that way. I'm in the process of trying to get the official reports. The police report won't help much, as he's convinced her they're lying. Not mistaken, lying. Two weeks ago, she recognized this as part of his paranoid delusions. The EMS report, I'm hoping, will answer a lot of questions. My sister wants to get her hands on the 911 recording, to prove to everyone how upset her boyfriend was when he called. Again, it's possible. There's no doubt he loves my sister. But until we find proof of what happened either way, the doubts will sit in our minds and hearts. If he's still around longterm after this, that could cause problems, so I really need to get this info.

My youngest niece has told her mother that if the boyfriend were in treatment and taking his medications, she would have no trouble having him live with them. Until then, she wants him gone. My oldest niece isn't talking. Mum's looking into counselling for them. They saw my sister yesterday and are going again tomorrow. Mum says she's positive in attitude, which is a good thing. She's also looking for phone calls, so I'm calling today. I'm not going to push the boyfriend issue. She needs to believe in him right now. That may or may not change later, but right now he's important and I don't want to jeopardize any improvement by trying to argue with her about it. Mum feels the same way about it.

Anyway, things are more positive today. This is good.

Warm hugs,

Oh Kat...first and foremost, I'm so very sorry that you're having to go through this nightmare, I'm so glad that you have your sweetie to hang on to and you aren't having to go through this alone...he's definitely a keeper...this is such a multi-complex problem and it's going to take time, love, support and probably some prfessional counseling for your sister and her girls....you have a lot on your plate honey...I will keep you and your family in my thoughts and prayers, please keep us posted and as many have reminded me, take care of yourself, eat, rest and pump the fluids...many hugs...

Lon, you are a treasure. Thank you. Made me think of a fire breathing dragon. Is that what Lenny is? And you ride him to battle the foes and protect damsels in distress?

I understand what she's experiencing with the boyfriend to some extent. We've both tended to choose men who needed our care in some way or other. In this we are following a pattern that runs through the women in our family going back at least 2 generations. I know what it is to love someone dearly, someone who's toxic, but who if I'm good enough can be saved. The tool I have in my arsenal that my sister doesn't is the better part of 20 years of therapy of one kind or other. Mum's tried so hard to get her into therapy, since my dad left when my sister was 11 and she decided she would never cry again. Thing is, she's always been massively intelligent, presented herself calmly and well, and the first session with the therapist would end with the therapist saying she didn't need therapy at all. My mum and I, however, have unabashedly wept and railed in therapy and we've been able to come out the other side healthier. Right now, we're looking at the entire family being in therapy to deal with this. Wouldn't it be ironic if my sister was the only one who wasn't.

And she's not necessarily wrong not to trust this doctor's immediate diagnosis. However, our fear is that she will just let it go and keep living her life the way she has been. Mum and I are going to encourage her to remain in contact with the psychiatrist she consulted last week. Apparently, she liked her, and that may be the therapeutic relationship that helps my sister find out why she's crashed into massive depression at the drop of a hat for her whole life. We're hoping we can talk her into being pro-active in seeking a diagnosis, or at least coping tools to start with.

Mum has an appointment with her own psychologist next week, and she's going to see if he can help her find counsellors for both the girls. The girls are going back to school next week, so Mum has spoken to their principals, vice principals and my Elf's teacher. They've all agreed to be there for the girls if they need to talk and there's a guidance counsellor at my Kitten's school that she can go to as well.

As it stands, the boyfriend is going to be around for a while yet, until my sister can see as clearly as she was two weeks ago about him. We're all keeping our fingers crossed on this.

Agape,

You're right, Sue. It can be enough sometimes. I told Mum this morning how awkward it felt. She felt the same thing and figures that it's probably normal given the circumstances.

I was so sad last night. My sweetie feared I was blaming myself somehow and had a long talk with me to give me perspective. I don't blame myself. I have no control over this and while our childhood has created some issues with my sister, I also know that this is not what put her where she is today (physically and emotionally, I mean). It all just makes me so damned sad. He reminded me that she's alive and suggested I focus on that when things get bad. This is a chance for a new beginning in her life, in our relationship. He's right. This morning it's easier. We'll see what tonight brings.

Warm hugs,

Hey Rumble, you quoted just fine.

I wish we could get a restraining order, but we cannot without her cooperation. That's not going to happen right now.

Mum took my sister to a psychiatrist last week for some counselling and is willing to keep taking her as long as is necessary. We're hoping we can talk my sister into continuing with this doctor, as she liked her and there's a chance for trust there. I'm pretty sure she knows there's a problem, it's the diagnosis in 2 days from a doctor she's just met that she doesn't feel comfortable with. That and the meds, which flatline her emotions and she does not like that in the slightest.

Warm hugs,

Michelle, my sweetie has been wonderful. We are his family now and he's feeling almost as hurt and angry as the rest of us. And very protective. He lets me cry when I need to, holds me when I need it, listens when I need it. Sometimes I forget that it's not just Mum, the girls and me who are hurting. My sweetie and stepdad are, too. So, I'm trying to make sure they know I'm aware.

I'm trying to take care of myself, make sure I eat and all. Food is pretty much sawdust right now. I go from being OK, to not OK pretty quickly. Never despondent. Just sad. You take care of you, too, OK?

Warm hugs,

Kat,

I wasn't going to reply in any way because it feels like all my responses would be inappropriate.

I'm am so sorry for you and your family.

I have a cousin who I do ot see very much of but his brother died recently so the family got to see him again. He is schizophrenic. all in all he's probably not a bad soul but he has had very bad moments. I say this so as not to sound like I am unempathetic to your sister's boyfriend and his problems, because in all candor I am.

I would in any way possible let this very dangerous human being know that my entire family and friends are now involved. I woud hope and believe I woudl be able to enlist four or five of my largest friiends or famly members to visit him. This sounds like a Bruno bit but its not. I think a guy like that needs to see that there will be consewuences to pay if your sister as mcuh as bruises her knee in his presence ever again. He's a predator who I woudl want to be kept ncomfortable. I would care less if my sister was upset at me or not. I would visit this guy with some frequency with a friend or tow a t all times and remind him we are involved. I would want him scared.

I would sent letters to any local authorities inquiring if they wish to pursue the matter against him, knowing full wellthat not much is going to come of it BUT I would send them with proof of mailing. Whenever something like that goes into a file somewhere, some bureacrat who is in CYA mode is going to be a little more nervous about just turning a blind eye to a volatile situation. I would send more than one letter to each place I thought appropriate. Just so no one could say they were not aware of the dnagers.

Forgive me if I sound ignorant. It just that reading your post bothered me immensely. This guy beleives he's slipping between the cracks fo the system and is banking on everyone going away. I sure as heck would want him knowing I and whatever allies I can gather are not going away and I bet in time he leaves your sister and finds another soft touch to take advantage of. One where he is not getting so much interference and the inference of retaliation.

Forgive me if I'm boorish or off base. Just worried from seeing far too many bad folks get to hurt well intentioned souls like your sister and your lovely young neices.

Best wishes.

Hi Kat.
I just wanted to add that I agree with every thing Steve has just said he has to know he is being watched by as many people as possible.
Kevin

Bravo

Hey, Kat:

I have to somewhat echo Steve's post.

In fact my brother is a paranoid schizophrenic and although it is impossible to understand how their minds function, they can sometimes be disincentivized when they are finally affiliated with potential consequences.

The problem really is that Your sister needs to get away from this guy once and for all because this disease too often has a bad ending that should not include her. She needs to be de-programmed from him. There should be some counseling available to her so that she can understand that her boyfriend is no longer the same person she once loved, and he can hurt her unless she takes the initiative to put enough distance between herself and him. Check women's shelters for professional counseling references and they will show her what she can do for herself.

This is a constant worry for You that You do not need, and Your sister needs specific help that most of us are not able to provide. I wish You and Your family all the best,
John

Steve, this is neither inappropriate, nor boorish. My sweetie is of the same mind. Problem is that right now, she's convinced she needs him. When she's a little more removed and had more counselling, we'll address it with her.

In the meantime, I am in the process of trying to get the facts as we know them in some kind of order. I've been researching whom in our government is the best person to start with. I figure the Attorney General and Minister of Health, with cc's to the Premier, the ex Minister of Health and Deputy Premier (those last are one and the same person). Mum and I have made sure that anyone in authority of any kind who's been involved knows the boyfriend's history (including the doctors at the facility my sister is at (where, coincidentally, the boyfriend has also been in treatment in the past - found that out from the police) and the fact that he's just been deemed mentally incapable of governing his own treatment, and that he's appealing and out of hospital pending that appeal. The police told my sweetie that they have a file on him going back at least 18 months in that district, because of all his calls to them prompted by his paranoid delusions. They are also aware of my sister's involvement and that she's protecting him right now. The officer my sweetie and stepdad spoke to out and out stated that he must be got away from her, but unfortunately, she has to be the one to do it. They have no legal grounds.

I'm also trying to get the official police and EMS reports. The police were very clear about what happened, but since my sister has fallen for her boyfriend's take on how the police are lying (part of his paranoid delusions - they are against him because they didn't go out and arrest the people he's convinced have been following him - there's no-one to arrest, because they don't exist, but he doesn't believe them) I want evidence from the EMS people.

In the meantime, my sweetie wants to be Bruno (or Lenny). We all feel the same way, but we fear it would do my sister harm right now. She's convinced he saved her life and he is now her hero. He knows how Mum, the girls and I feel by the way. You should have seen the looks and stony silence he got from us at the hospital and then at her house afterward. The women in our family have a look that's passed (I swear it's genetic) from generation to generation. We're all born able to do it and it leaves no question as to what we think when we use it. He got it from all four of us last Sunday and my sweetie would not allow him access to the house while the girls, Mum and I were in it.

Steve, you said what needed to be said. You said what we've all been feeling. I treasure that. Kevin and Allan, I'm with you. And I so appreciate you backing Steve up on this. You are all simply being the good friends you are.

Everyone here is. You have no idea how grateful I am.

Love and hugs,

John, I am so sorry that you have had to live with this too, in your family (and Steve, I forgot to mention this when I responded to you). You hear about paranoid schizophrenia, but it's impossible to know what it really is until you experience it. My sister asked that I check out Dr. Xavier Amador to get some understanding of it and what she's been dealing with since the boyfriend came into her life.

The police officer at the hospital gave us a card for family crisis support services. They do everything from getting you groceries, to feeding your cats, to counselling during crisis. Unfortunately, the women's shelters in the area leave something to be desired. The nurses at the hospital told Mum that if my sister called a shelter, make sure she talked to one of the women there, not one of the male volunteers who, apparently, don't get it. No disrespect to men in general, just to the ones the nurse was talking about.

The idea of deprogramming has also been raised, along the lines of an intervention (word used by the officer my sweetie and stepdad talked to). My sweetie has offered to look into this for the family. Mum isn't ready to go that route yet. I'd hate to think something this drastic would be required, as my sister is highly intelligent and generally pretty level-headed. At least, she's always seemed to be pretty level-headed, which has got in the way of her getting therapy on the occasions when she's gone for some as the therapists all tell her she doesn't need help. At least they won't be sloughing her off quite so easily anymore.

Luckily, she liked the psychiatrist she saw last week, so we're hoping that she will continue going when she gets out of the facility. This one took her seriously, probably because she was hardly able to talk for crying when she got there.

We knew the boyfriend had something, which we thought was bi-polar, but other than seeming a bit out of it now and then, and guzzling alcohol on occasion (I mean a 26er of scotch in about an hour and a half at his birthday last year), we really had no idea how serious it was. He generally has seemed OK and obviously in love with my sister. He makes her laugh and feel attractive, which she hasn't felt in years, and they talk all the time. He's supported her in some rough periods and shares her passions. We all kind of hoped that it would be good. How wrong we were. And there have been signs this past year that she does see him pretty clearly, including asking us not to fill his wine glass when he wanted more, but to only give him a bit. Frankly, Mum's taken to hiding the wine when he's around. When she called me two weeks ago, she was clear on one thing, he would not be coming back and she hoped he would be in hospital for a long time so he could get the treatment he needs. I have to wonder how many times he's threatened to kill himself since they met, as I'm relatively certain that's one thing she couldn't bear to live with.

Thank you, too, for being frank with me, John. All of you here at KA have no idea how much I appreciate you all.

Warm hugs,

Kat, oh my God, I'm so sorry! What an absolute trauma, nightmare--! Please take really good care of yourself. Don't get sick!
Find out as much as you can about the laws where you live regarding child protection services and domestic violence. If there are under age children living in the home with domestic violence going on, then the pressure of the kids possibly being taken into custody can at times galvanize the mom to leave the boyfriend who is abusive, so that she can keep her children. Find out all you can about the laws regarding hospitalizing people with mental illness. If there is evidence someone is a possible threat to another, he can be hospitalized in a psych unit against his will. Sometimes this can help get someone away from the person he may harm, get him somewhat stabilized on medication. These are just my suggestions from working in the past in the mental health system in the U.S. You may as a family have more power than you all realize, if you can keep in touch with the children, keep getting information, and keep communication open with law enforcement.
I'm so sorry, I can completely imagine how'd I feel in your shoes. My thoughts are with you. xoxo
Jan

P.S. Inanna, I just read about the whole alcohol aspect. He is an addict too?! I know this is quite common, and suggest that you and your family learn all you can about "dual diagnosis" including getting support by going to Al Anon meetings, which will help you with possibly conducting an intervention at some point. I know some people would find this very different, and would not want to attend these meeting, but they can help people without addictions truly understand the nature of this disease and how it is influencing your sister. I hate to think of those young girls growing up under the shadow of mental illness and alcohol addiction.
Best of all wishes for healing and hope!
Jan

Aw Kat, I can only imagine that this all must be so incredibly stressful and overwhelming for you to try to think and wade through, about what may or may not be truly helpful for your sis right now.

I tend to agree too with everyone... maybe your sweetie and stepdad and two of their good friends, could just 'happen' to stop by on their way to somewhere and visit the boyfriend to 'offer their help' in assisting him to leave the country. Since your sister herself gave this as the reason for his visit that day, it is simply an offer to help him. If they happen to look intimidating and involved, well, it's not their fault they are big guys, right?

The odd phone call and overheard arguing by your niece's friend - keep this in mind. No matter how much he loves her, clearly he is a genuinely and extremely ill man in need of professional treatment; there is no escaping the fact that his influence and presence in her life is a danger. He is not bringing out the best in her certainly and she needs to face the fact that, as much as she might like to, she is simply NOT strong enough to act as his saviour.

I really know nothing about interventions but I am sure one of these crisis counselling places could help provide you with some professional information and guidance. I appreciate that your family does not want to do the wrong thing or take a wrong step right now...

but I would not rule this out too quickly if this was recommended.

Oh, and I would copy your letters to the Chief of Staff of any hospital that was involved in his release!

Kat my thoughts are with you.
Love and hugs!

mig

Hi Jan, thank you so much.

The problem is that as the law works here, he cannot be committed against his will without a hearing. Which, by the way, has occurred. That was 2 weeks ago, and they found him mentally unable to govern his own treatment (I don't know what the official designation is). Thing is that he's appealing the ruling and whether or not he's held in hospital until the appeal completely depends on the facility where the tribunal occurred. Because it occurred in a Toronto hospital, where the beds are far too scarce, he was allowed to leave last Thursday on his own recognisance. Even if he is put in a facility longterm, he will be allowed to leave again as soon as he convinces his doctors that he's better and is willing to take his meds. His father has been through this with him numerous times over the past 30 years. Each time they hold a hearing, the boyfriend appeals. Each time he is committed for treatment, he gets let out for towing the line and goes off his meds again.

It's an awful system that absolutely must be changed. I can see allowing someone to leave once or twice, but if they are repeatedly going off their meds and being put back in the system, you'd think a bell would go off somewhere.

We are protecting the girls at the moment and are hoping we can get through to my sister once she's out of the facility. We don't know what else to do. Legally, we have no recourse.

Warm hugs,

Dear sweet Kat,

My heart aches for you and your family. I am soooo glad, tho, that you do have a close family to share this heavy burden. My heart goes out to those wonderful girls too. We always try to protect our children from ugliness, but hopefully with the love and constance from the family, they will open up, try to understand, and heal.

Love to you and your precious family! May God bless and keep your sister close!

Kat,
I would move toward your sister with a firm hand, let her know that you will see about getting her kids if she doe snotleave this man.. The problem in your family is her thinking, not his. Until they are married/ or by law connected, dump the rat, and let her know now is the time to get well for her own sake.
Personally I would make no threats, or make a written statement, unless of course you want to be connected to him for years. What ever is written is a matter of the court and is evidence you name is then public. I have gone through that andit is not fun to give such tesitmony, expecially if she is not ready. Treat her, avoid him. I would not wiat until she is well, sounds like she will just have more itme to get more attached.
I know I am a lone wolf, but i would have nothing to do with him. He will kill her next time. Just put the pressure on her..
The more time you give her to get well, the more she will pull away from what is normal..
Ah, what the heck do I know. I do love ya, I know you are trying. If I were there, make no threats, but indeed step on his feet ...
His illness may be permanent, but it sounds like she is rational. Deal with her. Come on tiger, lead her to safer ground, you can do this. Fight for her and those kids! Sometimes we are dealing with a power that may be unknown to us, so empty yourself of all averace and malice before trying to talk to him, ok?

Hi Kat,

Oh hon, this is just horrible. I'm too darn tired to offer any real coherent thoughts right now (recovering well from my pneumonia, but still tired all the time and sleeping more than normal), so all I can really add here is that I am SO sorry to hear how this is ripping your family apart and SO sorry that your sister finds herself in this awful position. Yes, she seems to be defending him now, but from the way you've described this, it's easy to tell that she is a totally innocent victim in all this who is being manipulated by this man because she still can't make herself love him any less (all, as you said, because she thinks she can save him, I'm sure). Before I married my ex, I had almost zero exposure to the mental health systems in Michigan and Ontario, so when she started having some very bad problems, I went through some of the same shock and dismay you are going through as I saw more and more of these facilities from the inside and as I learned what the laws would and would not allow me to do. All I can say is that with the exception of two hospitals--one in Michigan and one in Chatham--everything I saw having to do with mental health at the hospital level was a disgrace, period. At a time when your family is desperate to find someone who is willing to help you and your sister, I have no doubt that you feel as if you were running into one brick wall after another.

I might have a few ideas of things you can do that might help your sister see things more clearly, or might help with the courts if you are seeking injunctions or restraining orders against him at some point, but I just can't bring my thoughts together in a coherent enough manner right now to discuss them. After I get some sleep, I will come back here and add some additional thoughts Kat, I promise. Until then, all I can add is that you and your family, especially your sister and her girls, are very much in my thoughts and prayers today.

Know that everyone here loves you very much and that we are here to support you in any way we can. Many of us are within a few hours of you in Toronto, Kat, so don't hesitate to call out for help if there is anything we can do.

Brad

Oh Kat, what a painful mess. I am so sorry for your sister. I really don't have any advice. This is so beyond me. I just know if it were my baby sister, I would be doing everything I could to get him out of her life. There just comes a time when you don't have any control when they reach certain age.

One thought I have is "getting custody of your niece and holding that over her head that as long as she is involved with that man that you will fight her for custody of her daughter" That worked for some friends of ours and their daughter is a completely different person and has since married a great guy and is making a good home for her daughter. Just sharing that one for what it is worth.

Just know that I am thinking of you and will be praying for you.

Love you dear friend.
Possi

Hi Kath,

Sorry to learn what is happening with the family. Hopefully all turns out for the best.

Tim

Thank you for that.

Warm hugs,

Hi Lon, my sweetie and I are going back up to Mum's tomorrow morning. The girls will be with their dad, so we adults can talk about all of this. One of the things that my sweetie and I are going to raise is the idea of keeping the girls out of that house as long as he is there. They have a loving father, who would no doubt take them until then, or they can probably stay with my Mum, so they can stay in their schools.

My sweetie and I had a long talk about all of this last night. His fear is that next time, my sister won't survive. His biggest fear is that none of them will survive. He has a visceral gut response to the boyfriend. Has had since the first time they met. Sets his teeth on edge.

I cannot get away from the 'coincidence' that 3 weeks ago my sister was firm about the fact that he was not coming back, 2 weeks ago he had my sister removed from the tribunal and said he never wanted to see her again, one week ago, he got out of hospital. Two days later, she tries to kill herself??? All kinds of suspicions are running through my brain.

I fear it's too soon to be pushing her on this. Don't want to lose her altogether. Afraid if we don't push, she won't survive.

Thank you for the warning about avarice and malice. I know we cannot act from anger or hatred. That never comes out well.

Agape,

Hi Kat,

I am saddened to hear the horrific time you are having. I had one thought. You said your sister doesn't really listen to you. Does she have a close friend that she trusts? Maybe someone more neutral than you or your Mom could get through to her.
Laurie

Oh Brad, thank you. Any suggestions you have will be appreciated.

This is all so alien to me. I'm still grappling with how someone can be diagnosed with an illness that makes him a danger to himself, and possibly others, and be allowed to walk around without treatment. Now, trying to get a handle on how my sister could not see the danger he presents in her life. It's all just so wrong.

It's good to know that there are people ready to jump in if I need them. You all have no idea how much I appreciate it.

Warm hugs,

Hey Kat,.. I hope to be up north this weekend too. If you guys want to stop in on your way home for a visit, a hug, a little hike in the woods, or just place to relax and take a break from it all for an hr or two, please feel free to pop in. I think I sent you directions in the past?

Just a thought, I know you'll likely be pressed for time but just know you are always welcome!

Yes Kat take your washing up clothes cos Mig never does it, oh have you a lawn mpwer bu the way??

Oh and yes, take sandwiches, Mig is still learning making sandwiches by numbers, she is up to Number 5 (remove bread from wrapper)....drive past, drive past............

verrry funny you,

are a clot!

Joyce, thank you.

Prayers and thoughts go a long way, especially if they're coming from the KA family. We know how strong that is, don't we.

I would like nothing more than to get the boyfriend out of their lives. I'm researching and trying to find options, since legally, my sister is more than of age and we can do nothing without her agreement.

The schools have found a counsellor for the girls to talk to and I've suggested to them both that they start a journal to write about all of this, get it out of their heads and hearts so it doesn't weigh them down. My Elf says she was actually already thinking along those lines. My Kitten, she's not saying much at all. They're on their way to visit my sister now, so I asked them both to give her a hug for me. Mum will pass along my love.

Love and hugs,

Thank, Tim. That's what we're hoping, too.

Warm hugs,

Hi Laurie, thanks.

Right now she's in a facility getting care. Afterward, we're hoping she'll go to a psychiatrist she contacted last week, whom she seemed to trust. Sadly, my sister doesn't really talk to anyone, let alone me. She never has.

Warm hugs,

Mig, thank you so much for that. We'll play it by ear. You did send directions once, but sadly, I think my PM box was clogged once or twice this past year and I had to delete a whole whack of messages. That may be one of them.

I have your hon's cell number in my phone. Shall I just call that if we're stopping by?

Alan, you are both clots!! Thank you. The image of Mig trying to unwrap a sandwich almost beats the image of you trying to teach anyone to do laundry!

Warm hugs to both you clots,

Have sent you a PM to answer that one, Kat!

Kat I have read and reread all of your posts. I thought a lot about it and did not want to post on this one. But I decided I would be remiss if I did not. I have been an Officer for twenty four years. I have dealt with people like this many times over the years. I am just going to say it. Your sister needs to get out and get away! no good will ever come of this. The only outcome possibile is heartache, pain and worst of all death. He will suck her into the vortex of hell. She needs a clean and totall break from him and now not later. I apologize for the direct cold tone of this post but you have a loving caring family, that's a treasure you need to take care of.
I truly wish you the best!
Darrel.

Hi Kat

Sorry I havn't answered but I feel very inadequate.
My heart goes out to those who are mentally ill. It really does.
Scizophrenia is so scary and unpredictable and dangerous though. I too would say that the only option here, for the safety of your sister and her daughters is that she must stop seeing him. I would even go so far as to suggest that she should move elsewhere for a while.
So sorry you are all going through this.
You must be very scared.

HUGS
Maggie

hi Im soory I havent posted befor now having a Scizophrenic
mother this was a hrd post to reply to my mom has delusions about having achild and she does not have any boy friends or any thing like that and its ghard because when you confront here about it she can get vilent so I know what its like to live with Scizophrenia exspeshaly when they are not on meds I hope your sister is getting the help she needs I also pray that the boy friend may find afriend that he can talk to I agree that your sister needs to have the strength to leav on here own but not showing friendship to the boyfriend can make his deliusions worstI hope I have not steped on any toes in this post and may the lord help you through this trial in your lives

Hi Darrel, thank you for your honesty.

This is the same as indicated to my sweetie when he talked to the police the night it happened. We are doing what we can to convince her of this.

Warm hugs,

Maggie, thank you.

We are all very frightened. Sis swears that he is going into treatment and trying a new med. My youngest niece told us Saturday night that she doesn't want to live in the house if the boyfriend is there. Mum has assured her that both of them have a home with her while we work through all of this. Their father is fine with that, especially since their lives are in Mum's town (school, friends, etc.). However, he is also happy to have them, as am I, as is their father's sister. As far as we're concerned, my youngest niece's statement that "I don't need this again," pretty much says it all. Neither of them do, none of us do.

I know what you mean about feeling inadequate to comment on this. So do I. So do we all. The more we learn, the more inadequate we feel. But we are a strong bunch and as heart-broken as we are, we are determined to find the most positive way through this possible. There is no doubt in any of our minds about the boyfriend's future in my sister's life. The crux is to convince her of that.

Warm hugs,

Hello, soor hiker, and welcome to KA. Thank you so much for your post.

I am so sorry you have had to live with this through your mom. That must be horrible and painful beyond. Thank you for telling me about her.

Warm hugs,

Hey all, thought I'd update. Mum and I are holding on, just.

Friday, my sister convinced the girls that it would all be all right. The boyfriend would be getting treatment and trying a new med. They said that was fine. Saturday, my youngest niece called Mum from her dad's house. It is not all right with them. Neither of them wants to live in that house if he's there. She needed reassurance from Mum that they had a place with her, which of course she was given straight away. My oldest niece isn't talking. Still. They both have counsellor visits today at school.

We adults had long talks all weekend. Mum and my stepdad are completely prepared to have the girls live with them as long as it's needed. Their dad is fine with that. On Sunday, my sweetie called a friend of our who's an attorney. He told us that Mum could apply for interrim custody through children's aid. Better she do it outright, rather than waiting for children's aid to be called by someone else. Given the circumstances, the girls' opinions (which at the ages of 13 and almost 15 would have weight), Mum's willingness and the fact that she lives in the same town, and their father's willingness, it would probably go very smoothly. My sister's doctor at the facility has raised the issue of children's aid to my sister, by the way.

The doctor advised Mum that now is the time to raise difficult issues, as my sister is where she can get help. Waiting would be worse. So, tomorrow, Mum, the girls and the doctor are going to meet with my sister and she will be told the girls' wishes in this and that they want to live with Mum as long as the boyfriend is in the house. Mum's also asked me to talk to the doctor today, as she feels I have slightly more info on the events of the past month leading to last Saturday week.

There are no more secrets. The entire family now knows what's happened. My sister is going to have to learn to cope with that and the fact that everyone loves her and is worried for her and the girls. The support from my aunts, uncles and cousins (according to the one I spoke with yesterday) has been awesome. But that's our family. We rally round when one of us is in trouble.

The boyfriend's father is now in protect the boyfriend mode. He was very willing to talk to my sweetie and me quite openly, but will not talk to my mother. He won't give her any information at all about the boyfriend, or what the girls have been dealing with. Frankly, he's an enabling a$$ and I'd like to give him a piece of my mind. He flat out told my sweetie that he doesn't think he should have to deal with his son's problems anymore, that after 35 years he's had enough. If his son wanted to kill himself, he'd help him. That his son has been in and out of mental facilities and knows how to work the system. The impression my sweetie got was that the father felt it was now my sister's responsibility. That he's unwilling to be honest with my mother is just part of that selfishness. Mental illness being verbotten to discuss, keep it secret, hush hush, nobody should know. Idiot. Keeping it hidden is what leads to lack of understanding. It's an archaic idea that should be dropped from society. The only reason people don't want to be open about it is because they're afraid it will reflect badly on them if anybody knows a family member has a mental illness. It certainly has nothing to do with the patient.

Anyway, that's it for the moment.

Thank you all again. It's a truly horrific time in our lives and you all have been, well, you've just been yourselves and that's perfect.

Warm hugs,

Hi Kat
I think the Doctors are correct in saying you should put all this to your sister while she is in there care because they know how to treat her reaction. Allso she is protected and safe there so if he was to react badly to what is happening the Doctors can use this against him. If he gets nasty and he could because people with this illness cant stop themselves no matter where they are she is protected.I think it is right that the children live with your mother untill it is definate that he has gone for good. The problem is they tend to come back and unless he is certified Im afraid he will. You all have my deepest sympathy for what your going through please be carefull all of you. I would say this man is very unpredictable.
Kevin

Thank you, Kevin. For everything.

The other good thing is that my sister is talking for the first time in her life. We are learning things that we never knew before. The doctor asked if there was anyone who knew her well that he could talk to. My sister said that there is nobody. Nobody knows her because she doesn't talk to anybody, my mother included. She's right. And that's sobering. Mum is devastated. She's angry with my sister for doing this, and heart-broken that she should be so desperate as to do this.

As for me, I haven't reached anger at my sister yet. I'm using my anger to keep me going sometimes, so I haven't really examined it yet. My sweetie thinks I am, tho, angry at my sister, I mean. Although, I will admit that when I think of my nieces and what this is doing to them, I come close. I'm still mostly saddened by it.

Warm hugs,

Kat I dont know your sister but I would say a lot of this comes from fear. I knew a man years ago who was Schizophrencic a rough diamond but a really nice person so I thought . I wont say what he did but it was the worst you can imagine which is why I say you must ALL be very carefull please.

Kevin

Hy, Kevin. That's our fear.

Warm hugs,

So glad that the minor girls are getting a safe place to live. Your sister/their mom will have a little more reason to get her life in order now. Most of my worry was that the girls were in a potentially unsafe situation. Your sister should be happy that you and your mom are watching out for them. She probably ISN'T thinking that now, but will be when she gets her issues straightened out. Hugs to you for what will be several weeks of stress.

Oh Kat... classic symptoms, omg, I have been there. She doesn't know and probably does think she's completely dependent on him. It is so hard for us to see how an intelligent funny caring woman can think she doesn't have any other options.... you must understand how total that is.
Lot's of love, you can't run out of it so take it all,
CC

Kat, I watched one of my sisters go through a very similar situation...it got so bad that she had a nervous breakdown and had to be hospitalized for about 2 months...we spoke to her doctor and explained the depth of co-dependency in their relationship and the doctor ordered that my sister's boyfriend was barred from seeing her during that time....after about a month he came to us on his knees begging for us to let him see her, we told him no and we told him why....we also told him that we woulden't let him near her until he got treatment as well....that was 22 years ago...they both finished treatment and have been happily married for 21 years now....although my sister won't admit it, I think there was some physical abuse involved, fueled on by his drinking but he hasn't had a drop of alcohol since and things are fine, he still is a little anti-social at times but we force hugs on him at family functions and we make him talk to us....when they first met, I noticed that at family dinners, he ALWAYS got his plate first, before the children and before my Mother, I forbid that too but when I saw him treating her that way, I knew he was controlling her and showing us his dominance over her, that's a bad sign....Mom was the best at pulling him out of his shell and kind of keeping an eye on things, so I'm a little worried about what will happen now that she's gone but in any case, I hope that things work out for the very best in your sister's situation, it's not often that things turn out the way they did for my sister and I'm very thankful that it went that way, because it was just so difficult to see her go through all of that. You just hang in there, your sister is very lucky to have you....