Kickas.org Forums Ankylosing Spondylitis General Discussion #1 AS Web Support Group an update from Kat (non-AS)

Mel, thanks for this. I'm at work again today. Have to be. My co-worker is on holiday and we're the only ones who do our job. I should be at home with my sweetie, trying to figure out a way out of this. My family is stunned. I can hardly function. My sweetie ... oh dear god. I don't know what we're going to do. We thought we would at least get some form of a just ruling, but the court had a different idea. They knew that what was happening was wrong. Our family court system is so completely broken it's beyond me. They know that. They've acknowledged it. They said it outright in open court. How does sending a man to jail for inability to pay support, for the equivalent of 300 days a year for the rest of his life resolve anything? Especially when it's obvious that he really cannot pay. They asked that almost with those very words. Then turned around and upheld the ruling because we aren't lawyers and we didn't know what rules specifically had been broken, we didn't know which precedents would be most helpful. We just knew that rules had been broken and it was wrong. We couldn't afford a lawyer, so we fought at the Court of Appeal by ourselves. With no guidance. They listened. We knew they'd listened. We thought that at worst, they would amend the enforcement order, but still make him pay something. Instead they upheld the ruling striking his pleadings, then the enforcement order. Pay $3,000 a month (he never earned enough to do that) and for every monthly payment missed, spend 15 days in jail. For the arrears, pay $15,000 a quarter (starting June 7) and for every quarterly payment missed spend 30 days in jail. He never had the money she claimed. He never had the earnings she claimed. But because his pleadings were struck the morning of the trial into the period of co-habitation and support entitlement, five years ago now, and have been repeatedly struck because he's never been able to afford a lawyer, never had the health to work to make the ordered payments (the Louisiana thing almost killed him) or to follow through on appeals, they've never ever heard his evidence into his actual earnings, the half a million dollars he gave her after they broke up (cash, car and publically trading shares), none of it. She's just been able to go in, claim he has this asset or that asset or this income, for five years she's done this and nobody's ever asked for proof of what she's saying. She just says it and they accept it because they've denied my sweetie input. He lost everything because of her. Declared bankruptcy because of her. The Trustee in Bankruptcy has never found assets, but the family court wouldn't listen. Sit down and shut up we won't be hearing from you today. When I put a second mortgage on my house to pay a lawyer through 2010 to do a motion to vary the settlement, he was also told to sit down and shut up. He was stunned. He'd never been to court in this particular jurisdiction and had told my sweetie that it could never happen.

Now, my sweetie is facing an enforcement order that is beyond the pale in its oppression and cruelty. All those missed payments (even selling my house wouldn't come close to helping) add up to 300 days of jail a year for the rest of his life. It will kill him. They won't make sure he gets his enbrel so he can function at all. They won't make sure he gets his diabetes medications so his blood sugar imbalance doesn't kill him (which it has almost done several times before he was diagnosed). They won't make sure he gets his blood pressure meds. Nor will they make sure he gets the exercise and diet he needs to live healthily. He might be able to withstand 2 weeks, but not 2 weeks, stretching to 180 days, over and over and over.

Debtor's Prison was abolished in Canada. We do not have the death penalty. But our Court of Appeal has just upheld rulings that amount to both. And we have no more recourse in law at this point. Even if we could pay a lawyer.

Men are committing suicide in our province because of this very public policy. They lose their licenses, they lose their jobs, their homes, and when they lose so much that hope goes with it, after having tried to work within the rules and get the variance in the support order that by law they are entitled to when they have a change in circumstances, they put a gun to their heads, take pills, lie down on the railway tracks and wait to die. They have no other options.

Public policy was put into place to protect women. Women always win (there are actually lawyers' symposiums with that exact title). They put that policy into place based on feminist ideology, to redress the wrong that women had been living under before. But in trying to establish balance, they've created a massive imbalance in the other direction and now, men are being hounded into death because the courts don't want to hear it if they cannot pay.

And we don't want to do. We thought we'd be able to at least move forward with our lives in some kind of positive way. Now, we don't know what to do.

Kat - I'm so sorry to hear this. I struggle to understand why there isn't a solution. I'm sure you've tried all avenues - legal aid etc. Surely, it must be part of the process for someone to actually prove that he has assets?

Also - these are very high payments. My daughter is entitled to support from her ex-husband for their child (she doesn't receive anything) but it only amounts to $300 per month. Your story is stunning and hard to understand.

I'm just shocked and very sorry.

Stunning is right.

Oh Kat. I didn't realize that you put a second mortgage on your house so that he could hire a lawyer last year. That is brutal too. I hope you are able to pay it???

I can't understand why it is even legal to represent yourself when the courts dislike it so much that they seem to penalize people for it. Why wasn't he provided with a legal aide lawyer? Isn't that the law too? I guess it is water under the bridge now but none of it makes sense, the amount of settlement for support payments based on such a very short term relationship without kids just seems ludicrous!

I only know of one divorced couple where the man did not pay her any support (involved 3 kids) and she ended up living back in her Mom's basement. He was able to hide his money. He was a millionaire (on paper) and someone that I had always cared for very much. I was shocked that he didn't support his kids. He did lose a bunch but was still coming up with money to carry on a big business but who knows... I just know that my girlfriend got a job and had to raise them all on her own, with her Mom's help. You really want to believe that our courts are good at getting to the truth but I know of another scary story where friends of ours lost everything after being sued (over a real estate deal) and they did nothing wrong. Nothing. All they did was sell their home to lunatics. And they lost every dime they'd ever owned. And they are the nicest people.

I'm afraid that I don't have a clue to a possible solution for you guys, but please tell me that you won't dare sell your house Kat. That will not help either of you at this point, to not have a roof over your head.

Maybe they will believe him when he doesn't magically make huge sums of money appear out of his hat to avoid jail. Anyone who was secretly rich would surely do that.. or maybe they will let him out... there is no way we have the jail space for this sort of insanity. They seem to let out actual dangerous offenders every other week!!

Oh Kat - I am just so sorry for you both. I am here if you need a shoulder.

Hey, my boss sent me home. I'm to call tomorrow to let him know what's going on and what we feel they can do to help. He doesn't think he can loan us enough money to help, however. But we're trying to come up with options.

Legal aid is so cash strapped that men have not been able to get it for family matters in over a decade. It's only in the past year that they've stopped giving it to women.

We tried back in 2006, but even tho we were not technically or legally common-law yet (wouldn't be for another six months), because I had access to an extra $300 a month, they wouldn't give it to him. He appealed that decision twice and they wouldn't do it; although they expressed sympathy for his situation.

We've long thought that jail time would be the only way to prove there was no money, but in the case of these judges and rulings, we doubt it will make any difference. We're supposed to pull it out our [*bleep*] I suppose.

Brian has given me strict orders not to sell my house as it's my only security. He's also prevailed upon my mother and a good friend to not let me do it should he not be around to stop me. It wouldn't come close to covering even a small portion of this given how heavily it's leveraged at this point, anyway.

Aw, that was kind of your boss to give you another day off. I'm so glad to hear that Kat.

Wow that is annoying! If the province isn't providing legal aid then the judges should have to take a big PILL and take that fact into greater account, or demand the province fix it if they can't deal with it. Oh that makes me angry - I really don't understand how your assets should have had any bearing on his ability to get legal aid back then. That is just wrong. Well, I do understand how it happens and think our govn has created a harmful system.

How did they even know what you had, what 'extra' could you have had? Arrrgh, sorry Kat, that's just rhetorical. I realize I am just all questions and no help.

It is an odd thing to put the burden of proof on him - how can a person prove they have no money...!!

Oh Kat, I wish I knew something to suggest.

I am just shocked that something like this could happen. I guess there is not much that can be done. I would try to get the TV or newspapers to report on this and how unfair it is. Perhaps with all the publicity, you could get people to donate to a fund for him. It might take a lot of spaghetti feeds and yard sales. I am so sorry.

Kat, this is so crazy.

Legal Aid is still available for women, which I am thankful for. It also depends on the amount of money coming in, if you own a home, any assets you have.

I have a lawyer, she is going for support from my husband. The courts have a set scale that women can ask for from there husband, here in Canada. I had to fill out a financial statement. My lawyer said all she needed was proof that my husband was still working (that I have), and his financial statement (Right now I think he has other pressing matters on his mind). As I did up his last income tax, and budgeted in coming money (I know pretty close to how much he makes), I have all that on the computer.

It sounds so crazy for them to be asking for $3000/month. They have to believe he is hiding money. Bankruptcy people would be after their share if he was supposedly hiding money. They would had made him cash in any major assets to pay off bills etc. If he had that kind of money why would he not have paid off your mortgage, instead of you going after a second mortgage.

So many guestions, no real answers to help.

Hugs much love to you both
friends

It really is crazy...

most cases ARE geared towards the woman who has a husband that DOES try to get out of his financial responsibility..including myself. Now this was back in like 1990 but my child was 4 when we split up and he was ordered to pay like $333.00 a month plus 1/2 of all medical premiums and expenses..he had no job on purpose so even then the law calculated it as a full time 40 hour work week at minumum wage so that men that did this for the sole purpose of not working had to pay something.

So after 14 years no help with insurance premiums or expenses and a feww $333.00 payments..I wont tell you how many letters my attorney got telling him what a travesty it was that he was being forced to pay when he had another family and I clearly didnt need the money...WTF? we wont discuss the 3 years I was on my own with 3 jobs trying to support her and myself...anyway he ended up with about a $20,000 balance..he offered me $5000.00 to sign away all my rights to any future monies or legal actions and Tiffany was planning on getting married so I took it thinking she will finally get something out of the deadbeat and then I wont ever have to deal with him again...did he get away with alot? Yep but sometimes you have to decide whats more importent.

What Kat and Brian is going thru is one of those horrible situations on the other side where he truly doesnt have any money or assets and they are still trying to pursue him THAT I dont agree with at all.

It sure seems like there should be something that could be done but I know both of you have surely checked everything out. I am speechless that they would think that putting Brian in jail is really going to accomplish something...

I just dont know what else to say...I am still just in shock!

I can't believe that has happened. It is just so crazy. I'm sending out every possible positive vibe for you both. XXXX

Hon, you have no idea how grateful I was to hear you'd been able to get legal aid. You must be one of the exceptions due to your circumstances, I would think, and I am glad to know they are at least doing that for someone like you, who truly needs it.

Brian's filled in all the forms, he's provided the disclosure, it's all with the Trustee in Bankruptcy as well. Family Court doesn't care because they don't acknowledge his filings at all because his pleadings were struck, so as far as they're concerned, the findings of the Trustee in Bankruptcy don't exist. All that matters is what she says, and she says he has money and assets hidden away. And you'd think that since his pleadings have been struck, the court or at least FRO would have to actually look into the truth of it, but they don't. Have to, I mean.

And one of the most frustrating things for me is I am a witness to all of his side of this. I can attest to the truth of what he's saying since May 2005 when he first told me everything that was going on. I could put my hand on a Bible, if I were so inclined, and swear to God Almighty that I am telling the truth and I would not be struck dead by a bolt of lightning for doing so. I nursed him through every health crisis he had. I know that he has no money because I live with him. I know he's been unable to work full time because I witnessed his struggle to find employment after she orchestrated him losing his job and I know the truth of his ability to work full time due to his health. I saw the effect of what he tried to do in Louisiana on him, the days and sometimes weeks it took for him to recover every time he had to go down there and drive all over hell's half acre trying to accomplish something. I know because I helped him pick up the pieces of himself and put them back together. I know the truth and he's telling it. But the truth doesn't matter, only the law and technicalities.

Anyway, honey, I truly hope you get what you need in your case because you deserve it. You are a wonderful human being who's been handed the rawest of deals. You deserve better and I hope you get it.

Warm hugs,