Kickas.org Forums Thread Like Summary - SIBO and possibly a better solution

After many years experience with NSD and antibiotics, and subsequent many years remission without antibiotics and eventually no dietary restrictions, I came to the conclusion that my AS was controlled--in considerable portion--by SIBO. The reason I alternated between antibiotic types (bactericidal and bacteriostatic) was so that, hopefully, the Klebsiella pneumoniae would not develop resistive strains that could populate what I have come to realize were massive colonies.

In our group discussions about the time required to trigger a flare, so many people observed that they eat some provocative food and within 20 minutes and up to two hours; in an impossibly short time, according to the model (that is, Klebsiella living in the lower gut and proliferating there). Instead of 20 minutes, the process might instead require at least FOUR HOURS.

ENTER Small Bowel Intestinal Overgrowth. My protracted (over a decade no abx and eating a terrible diet) remission has a single most reasonable explanation, as does The "time constant" characteristic I had been grappling with for many years. Apparently, my cycles of switching antibiotics was not only effective in preventing resistive strains, but I was gradually chipping away at the SIBO and massive other displaced colonies of our nemesis germ. Truly, I had no idea of this happy consequence. Again, I was very lucky taking these drugs.

I just listened to Dr. Wm Davis in light of another posting that asked the question of which bacteria are we taking that helped AS (presumably as a probiotic or fermented food). It is a difficult question for me because I did not use probiotics, but when overseas took "Yakult" and when returning to US I would take small quantities of Stonyfield Farms yoghurt (about 2 oz every other day when recovering from harsh abx); it is difficult to take yoghurt because of the sugar and also because of the lactose which in excess can trigger a flare.

As an alternative to taking antibiotics, I would follow MOST of the advice here: Dr. William Davis interview by Jesse Chappus [youtube.com]

HEALTH,
John

Hello John,

Good to see a few posts... I stuck with Stoneyfield Farms in States when I could tolerate yogurt. Still eat it here... just in last year labeling requirements here changed and now there is warning of excess sugar on all yogurt labels from what I have seen.

Have had issues with sugar in past at times... but not in 4-5 years now. Started with intermittent fasting and really think that has helped with healing my gut. Other than yogurt, blueberries and raisins do not eat any sugar.

Best to you,

Tim

Hello, Jonathan:

Sorry for the late reply; busy here in Philippines now.
I was not offended by Your post, but there was something You said that made me quit reading; I shut down early because I did not want to wade into the weeds too deeply again!
1) I believe that our nemesis bacterium does, in fact, work its way up into the small bowel, albeit such a massive SIBO takes perhaps many years to establish. One of my early observations about the diet is that my GERD cleared up. Yes, because of the timing of the flares and the thorough seeding by the time the chyme reaches the large intestine, it seems very plausible that the small intestine is involved.
2) The problem with antibiotics is that they not only affect the target bacterium, but are broad spectrum and adversely affect the entire mucosa, which is knit together by a lot of similar bacteria. This mucosa covers up damage to the epithelium, turning dormant lesions into active ones. This exposes more of our immune system (lymph nodes in the gut) to the triggering Klebsiella. This is another reason that antibiotics should only be used in conjunction with the diet and intestinal cleansings. Your observations are quite valid in this regard.
3) I haven't noticed that people on the restrictive diets, long-term, do worse but they are continually frustrated from apparent lack of improvement and stealthy starches. They should be taking supplements and gut-friendly foods in addition to the draconian restrictions they self-impose.
I am convinced that a healthy gut can help us become much more starch-tolerant. Good observations on Your part and I will try and review what I missed in previous post.
HEALTH,
John

DragonSlayer,

After reading hundreds of stories and listening to top researchers about gut health and Autoimmune Diseases, I think that SIBO has a much larger role in AS and autoimmune disease for the majority of people.

Could the original Ebringer theory be partially incorrect? I guess if one really had a large overgrowth of klebsiella in the large intestine that could trigger an immune response. I read that the klebs live in everyone's large intestine in a healthy and small amount. I also heard that starch barely reaches the large intestine during digestion, and is primarily absorbed at some point in the small intestine. Meaning that starch as food source, are going to feed the klebs in the small intestine a hell of a lot more.

People like Dr. William Davis speak about SIBO leading to leaky gut and autoimmune diseases. Could the spread of Klebsiella and other fecal bacteria from the large intestine, into the small intestine be the main driver of AS in the majority of the population who suffer from it?

Rather than the original theory about AS being triggered from klebsiella in the large intestine. I'm talking about the majority of AS cases...


I think for people like my father who wasn't really affected by AS until later in age, this might be the case. He only had slight pain on occasion and would take long to heal once injured, and lived a normal life until old age. Now as he got much older, his AS kicked in badly after using NSAID (which affects small intestine) for an injury and getting the COVID shot (which disrupts gut balance in small intestine).


Since klebsiella is supposed to be a fecal bacteria and part of a healthy balance in the large intestine, maybe the Immune response to klebs in the large intestine isn't much at all, if any...

Let me know what you think...

I'm also seeing how a restrictive diet is counterproductive for the growth of good bacteria in the small intestine, which is needed to produce a defense against Fecal bacteria in the small intestine. From my understanding, if there isn't enough good bacteria in the small intestine, then it will be easy for Fecal bacteria from the large intestine to spread and cause SIBO...

Best Regards

Jonathan

Hello, Jonathan:

I appreciate Your observations and opinions. I have not yet (26 years and counting) found anything that is direct evidence against the germ cause of AS and especially the germ Klebsiella pneumoniae. The obfuscating factors are usually easily explained and I used to invest a lot of time and hand-waiving in this for the edification of our members. Today, however, I just rely upon time to show the wiser.

Keeping in perspective that the digestive tract is a very dynamic environment and there are many factors which affect this environment, it is possible to make almost any observation at any given time. If You can assign meaning to Your observations and synthesize a new theory, I would love to help You articulate it, but please understand that I have had irrefutable results on the basis of Ebringer's work.

The acronym S I B O actually implies that any bacterium growing within the SMALL INTESTINE is not a "normal" situation; we use beneficial bacteria to implant "good," and perhaps displace "bad" bacteria in the large intestine. A TRULY low-residue diet should not feed the (large) lower intestinal bacteria, but nearly all starches reach the lower bowel intact in quantities large enough to cause problems for people with AS. I really haven't found any technique that would reduce starches to sugars early enough to avoid becoming a substrate for our nemesis bacterium.

Because there are so many different gut residents, I am not very interested in keeping them happy: I just wiped the slate clean and started over after I got rid of my number one problem!

AFTER I got rid of most of my gut flora, I found a few good yoghurts and supplements and reimplanted flora that I knew and liked.

HEALTH
John