Kickas.org Forums Ankylosing Spondylitis General Discussion #1 AS Web Support Group Klebsiella P. Lab Report

No, it's not the same thing at all. HLA-B27 is a HLA gene, but it has some similar structure as klebsiella-bacteria and due to that fact there is thought to be a relation between Klebsiella ad AS...When the body start to fight Klebsiella it makes the error thinking that HLA-B27 is to be fight against, too, and that will be an auto-immune respons.
Sorry I didn't read the other answers, I have got a cold and have fever so I just looking around shortly.

Hi Mike, this is a facinating post and thank you for it. However, I would ask that you be careful of blanket statements such as, "If you truly have A.S., then the question is not if you have an infection of Klebsiella, but how much."

This theory, while bearing weight in some cases of AS, does not hold true in all. Dr. Enbringer's results have not been repeated in testing done outside of his pervue to the extent that he was able to achieve them. I have asked several world experts about this and their responses varied: from complete disagreement to while it may have some bearing in some patients, it is not a proved theory to this point that all people with AS live with an over abundance of KP bacteria.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Hugs,

Problem is, Kat:

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Dr. Enbringer's results have not been repeated in testing done outside of his pervue to the extent that he was able to achieve them

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EBRINGER's results HAVE been repeated in the laboratories of at least 17 different countries. Mike's statement is quite accurate--and for EVERY case of AS.

The only things that really matter are results, despite what 'experts' claim, and regardless of the complexity their explanations/obfuscations. The truth actually survives oversimplifications even by 'non-experts.'

I don't agree that testing for Klebsiella pneumoniae is even appropriate because that level which is tolerable for 91.361% of the human population is absolutely devastating to the rest of us. Unlike peanut allergy we don't experience critical anaphylaxis, but quite like this condition...we are unique.

Mike's situation in evaluation (location) for levels of this germ is interesting and should be instructive, for those who understand the mechanism and who KNOW about this pathogen.

You are asking the WRONG experts!

Regards,
John

John, while I appreciate that you believe in this and that there is evidence for this in some cases, I cannot and will not accept being told without evidence or proof that every case of AS is due to kleb. Sorry, but I have not been told this by any of my doctors.

At the risk of sounding snotty, which experts would you accept as the right ones? I spoke personally to experts from Germany, the Netherlands, England, Ireland, India and the States, and they all expressed skepticism on this particular theory. All that means, John is that the experts don't all agree. But I'm not going to tell you or anyone that no cases of AS are caused by kleb. To do so would be irresponsible and unreasonable. All I can say with certainty is that some cases of AS are likely caused by kleb. Positive results for some people who have used the NSD successfully back that up.

On the other hand, the fact that not everyone who goes NSD has the same results would indicate that not everyone's case of AS is caused by kleb.

Can we not simply agree to disagree and stop making blanket statements? Or at least qualify those statements with the words "I believe"? You know full well that not every treatment is going to work on every patient, because the very nature of AS is highly individual. One of the things we do agree on, the biologics and their value, does not work for everyone. Does that mean that if it doesn't work on you, you don't have AS?

You also know the danger of blanket statements in that you know a great many women here who went undiagnosed for decades in some cases because of a theory based in bad research techniques and presented as fact - women don't get AS.

Come on, John.

Hugs,

Hey, Kat:


We are on an INTERNET FORUM--do we REALLY have to preface EVERYTHING we say with "...it is just my opinion." I give enough credit to the reader to consider the source.

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which experts would you accept as the right ones?

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No problem, and a fair question. Here is my fair answer:

EXPERTS who actually produce long-term, long-lasting, verifiable RESULTS and NOT physicians who cannot even heal themselves!

If some researcher wants to promote a weird and complicated scenario where SOME AS is caused by Klebsiella and SOME AS is caused by Giardia and SOME AS is caused by phases of the moon, that is THEIR OWN brand of insanity. I prefer Occam's razor to adopting such uncritical and liberal thinking.

You are right about blanket statements, but the purpose of scientific enquiry is to begin with every possibility and, subsequently through valid experimentation, eliminate all but one. SOME people are still trying to get us to believe that the work has not already been done, and they try to suppress proper discourse by editorializing, based upon inferior and even precedent science. It is over thirty years since Dr. Campbell's work and over twenty since Ebringer began employing diet in his clinical practice.

There are NO FACTS which can turn back the clock--and no such thing as 'benign neglect' when it comes to treating AS.

After the results are in, the blanket statements include the ridiculous attitude that "You can't PROVE anything," or that "statistics can be made to lie." Usually people not actively engaged in science and statistics make these statements; it is a shame that otherwise literate and logical people would promote such absurd 'blanket' positions.


Best to You,
John

Hi Mariero... I am no expert here, but from what I understand from the molecular mimicry theory, it is thought that the kleb bacteria is very similar in cellular structure to the tissues that our antibodies attack by mistake, these tissues being at the enthesis of our bones, as well as other tissue such as those found in our eyes; the B27 antigen is not a tissue but a gene marker, and there are many folks testing negative to this antigen that suffer with AS. So the auto-immune response is the attack on our own tissues, based on their similarity to the kleb bacteria structure based on the molecular mimicry theory, which is being so nicely discussed in this thread.

Almost everybody has klebsiella bacteria in their lower gut, along with millions and millions of other kinds of bacteria. Not everyone, however, has the same genetic structure and therefore the ability to manage their personal populations of bacteria in a fashion that is healthy for themselves, when they are stressed by their enviroment.

Humans also are not all designed, created, nor evolved to be able to eat the exact same thing, because to do so would quickly lead to extinction. We survive (so far) because we are diverse and adapt to what is available to eat...well, some of us did.

So therefore, a person who does not test positive for a single genetic marker such as HLA-B27, could of course, still have klebsiella bacteria.

Having the genetic marker HLA- B27 does not prove or disprove that a person has any disease, as most people with that particular marker still do not develope AS. However, since more people with AS do have the marker than do not, this test is used as one of many indicators that whatever a person has could more likely be a spondylarthropy. It just indicates a person had a much higher chance of developing the disease than the general population. There are other genetic markers (some not yet discovered, no doubt) that are associated with this disease, and other auto-immune diseases.

There is a very strong theory (hell, fact, in reactive arthritis) in many auto-immune diseases that they are triggered by an initial infection by a pathogen (bad germ). The active infection may end, for instance, killed by antibiotic treatment, but the body's immune system has been hyper-sensitized to keep attacking the body's own tissues. This causes the body's tissues to be in a constant state of inflammation. The initial infection leaves a "paper trail" of antibodies to the bacteria. That says "this germ has been here." This has been documented by researchers.

Most arthritis drugs used to fight the inflammation attempt to knock down this process of inflamation by interupting the body's chemical chain. The problem is, the body DOES need some inflamation ability to kill bad things. So by just knocking down inflamation, sometimes other things may go wrong. This is why people taking the biologicals, the anti -TNF drugs, are not supposed to take them during periods of active infection by other things, such as colds. This is also why NSAIDS, which ALWAYS damage the gut lining when used for any length of time, can cause havoc with some people if they already have a disease which has as one of its problems...intestinal malfunction. It makes the intestines very vulnerable to infection with bad germs. In the meantime, in a sick person on drugs, if the original pathogen (bad germ) comes back strongly, or another pathogen (bad germ) sees an opportunity to invade, it may do so and the disease process may be restarted again. Because the natural inflammation process was altered. Remember that the body also uses inflammation for good things, like killing off common viral infections like the cold and flues. This is why you run a fever when you're sick.

Remember also that pathogens (bad germs) are crafty little devils that are constantly evolving into a better gladiator to survive. They LIKE anti-inflammatories because they knock down the body's natural responses to try to kill them off. That should be the most frightening thing you've ever read here. Growing resistance of pathenogenic bacteria to antibiotics is common knowlege among the medical community. I've never heard any discussion by the "experts" on how the pathogens must be evolving to adapt, and take to their advantage, our wanton and glorious uses of all the other pharmacrap we are stuffing into our bodies.

Which I'm finding very peculiar, given the reams and reams of anecdotal testimony given here on this websight daily about how drug "a" , "b", "c", or "d', etc, is not working anymore for pain relief.

Would I dare as be so ***ing arrogant to suggest that these fellow travellers are not experiencing a legitimate phenomenom ? I don't think so. To do so would be denying my power of observation. You'd think somebody would be interested in coughing up a theory.

Anyone?

First of all Wind Rider has made some very valid points about the course of inflammation. I think that these points are valid for some but not all people who suffer from some form of arthritis. This information is probably the most factual on the thread that pertains to the theory about the link to Klebsiella P.

However, as already mentioned by another poster, there are people on this site who have waited a long time for a diagnosis simply because they are women, or they are HLAB27 negative (my situation for both). Windrider correctly identified the link between Reactive Arthritis and some form of virus. There are mutiple possibilities about why some people get reactive arthritis, but not all reasons relate to the gut. One of the causes of Reactive Arthritis is Ross River Fever, and the normal mode of getting Ross River Fever is by being bitten by a mosquito that is carrying the virus.

There are other possibilities that have not been considered with regard to why some people, even those who are HLAB27 negative end up with AS. I will try and relate some of these possibilities to the points raised by wind rider:

- environmental overexposure to fumes: toxic spill e.g. a toxic spill of pyrethrins (fly spray ingredient);
- environmental overexposure to fumes: chlorine, paint, fly sprays, plastics, and anything to do with painting.
- enteriobacterial infection including gastroenteritis and giardia, or similar bugs.
- childhood diseases: measles, german measles, chicken pox.

Now, whilst I have had the giardia infection twice, it is not responsible for my arthritis. I had signs of AS well before I was infected with giardia. Therefore, in my own case it is irrelevant. However, what about other enterobacterial infection? That is a question that I will leave open.

There are obviously other factors to consider, for instance in my own case, when I am bitten by an insect I react in an extreme way - I cannot stop scratching because the itch drives me crazy and I end up with a huge lump at the site of the bite. Is this relevant to developing AS? It might be relevant if I had been diagnosed as having reactive arthritis.

That leaves some other possibilities: my exposure to toxic fumes when I was about 12 to 13 years old. Of all the possibilities this one is probably the strongest lead as to why I became susceptible to getting AS, except for one thing - why is it, that around this age, I found that I could not walk up a sand dune without having to literally crawl because of the pain at the top of my right leg? I will leave that possibility open.

Another possibility is the childhood diseases: Chicken Pox, Measles and German Measles. I had all of these diseases by the age of 5 and was probably exposed to scarlet fever because my sister copped a bout with that disease. This is also an open possibility.

What I do know is that I showed some signs of having AS well before the age of 20. These signs were mild and there was no reason to connect any of the signs to something like arthritis. I had trouble with my feet during the teenage years - a sure sign of trouble ahead. My case was complicated because I fell and fractured and dislocated my coccyx at age 22.

What I am saying is that each case is different and that there is no one answer as to why some people end up developing this disease. We cannot make blanket statements even about something like the suspected relationship to Klebsiella P, because not everyone has the same symptoms, and a lot of people do not have IBS.

Of all the people with AS, it is more than likely that those with IBS might benefit from a low starch diet, but what they need most of all is fibre to keep the bowel healthy.

Yes, some people who are HLAB27 positive respond to the NSD because there is some kind of link to the starches in their diet and AS. However, since not everyone is HLAB27 positive, then there must be other reasons for the onset of AS. The Klebsiella P is possibly only one of many causes, but it is doubtful that it is either the sole cause, or the main cause for the development of AS.

Hi, Platypus:

We act based upon our opinions and in forming opinions we sometimes have to make assumptions without having enough data.

I suppose that many others might also be surprised to learn that even people with AS who are HLA B27 negative actually respond to the starch elimination diet. A better understanding of WHAT the B27 actually means would help explain why, but briefly the MHC designations are not even close to the whole genetic story and only characterize a small percentage of an individual's Osp (Outer surface protein) compliment. Although there are several other AS-linked designations (B7CREG, B60, B31, and a few others), they all share a particular coding sequence, so it is obvious to the researchers as to exactly how they would participate in the disease process (the B27 is not just a 'marker,' but an active--"reactive"--participant).

It is also not easy to differentiate triggers from causes. AS can be "triggered" in a susceptible individual by a myriad of agents, each and every one of which has one basic thing in common: They cause intestinal damage. Look at your own list, which did not include some of the most common triggers (you left this open)--but these are all TRIGGERS, and none of them are the CAUSE of AS. This is much more than obvious semantics.

If everyone is different, I suppose that the expression of THE IDENTICAL DISEASE in every individual patient might also be different. This was a primary concept taught by Hippocrates, so I know it has not just been invented in this thread.

A statement, without facts to back it up might appear logical and yet be totally wrong. The fact is that the NSD does help some people who have AS but exhibit no signs of IBS. There are thousands of postings and several very useful technical papers under the 'Diet Centre' heading that can help those who are interested in obtaining more data before making assumptions, however logical.

Regards,
John

Hey John,

Actually, I have learned through bitter experience in almost than ten years of participating in message board discussions that the words 'it's my opinion' are invaluable to preventing misunderstanding. Especially on a board such as this one where people initially arrive looking to get a more solid grasp on the facts of this disease that we have all found so frightening.

The only fact involved in this case is that Dr. Enbringer had certain results that, while they may have been replicated elsewhere, have not been replicated with any consistency in every research experiment that has done them. That I know of. And while I will acknowledge that the medical community can be slow to change its mind, the people with whom I have been working have a great deal of integrity and understanding when it comes to this disease. So the only fact that either of us can state with any certainty is that some people have great results with the NS/LSD, but it doesn't work for everyone. Since the efficacy of the NSD is, as I have found out in the last few hours, not an indicator of kleb p., we really have no way to measure this (kleb prevalence) within our own little online community.

John, my main objection is to any bald statement of 'fact' that cannot be substantiated. Things are already far too confusing to newcomers to our community, without adding to that with blanket statements. And I'm sorry, but as far as the kleb bacteria is concerned, what you state as fact for all of us cannot be substantiated.

As for the NSD itself, I would be more ready to believe that the positive results that some people have are based in a number of factors, of which kleb p may or may not be one. It could just as easily be the reduction in glutens, the banishing of wheat (which is the hardest of the grains on our bodies when it comes to processing), and the unforeseen result of a much healthier diet without the over intake of breads, pastries and pasta.

Anyway, I have to leave now for my favourite treatment to date. My infusion is in half an hour, so I'll make my way to the hospital, drink more coffee and eat a nature bar (no wheat, no gluten) while I cram lines from my latest show into my weary brain and wait for the Remicade to work its magic.

Hugs,