Kickas.org Forums Treatments, Drugs and Alternatives NSD and diet-related; Cause of Pain?

This may sound like a really dumb question but here goes:

What ACTUALLY causes the pain in the joints/spine etc.... is it the pressure from the build up of lymph in the lymph nodes, which is trying to carry away the toxic excretions of the KP etc? Is it starch molecules causing excess/ a backlog of lymph to accumulate? I have to know for a reason not just for curiosity.

Thanks ia
uksue

Neither the starch nor the klebsiella are assumed to leave the gut. The pain results from klebs specific antibodies made by our own lymphocytes attacking self tissue and the resulting inflammation.

...if they be strong or able to endure physic, yet it brings them to an ill habit, they make their bodies no better than apothecaries' shops; this and such-like infirmities must needs follow.

Thanks Bilko.
Hmm... I heard AS was different from rheumatoid arthritis and that the latter was autoimmune but not the former..dunno.
And starch or KP not leaving the gut is also up for questioning these days, as with other molecules, isn't it?
I appreciate the whole immune system is incredibly complex and as of yet not 100% fathomed by science.
Can the sudden presence of starch in the gut trigger the same response as if the KP were there...from immune memory..like a classical conditioning response?
Cheers
Sue

Hi, Sue:

Early in our AS experience, the pain is due, as you pointed out, to overburdened lymph, but it is carting off our own cell bits which have been destroyed. This destruction comes about by the Osp (outer surface protein) of the collagens being 'tagged' by the IgA (immunoglobulin 'A') that we overproduced in response to some Kp. When enough of these IgA-Kp attach themselves to the surface, their tails attract cytokines which begin the process of killing and tearing apart the collagens. Cells richest in B27 &c Osps are collagen types I, III, IV, and V--most of our connective tissue and select tissue in the eyes.

All 100+ non-osteoarthritides are autoimmune disorders, and the most common, RA, may have an immunoglobulin (IgG-Pm) that is fond of collagen type II; hyaline covering bones of the hands and feet.

Back to AS, however: Eventually, the overburdened lymph pain of inflammation gives way to constant skeletal pain from the damage wrought, even as a secondary mechanism like osteoporosis that causes our common stenosis, kyphosis, and eventual fractures.

When AS first starts, none of the pains are from skeletal damage; it is all due to inflammation. Anything which masks this inflammation is useless in preventing the damage eventually caused by the inflammation. We are trying to show younger people how to prevent the damage by addressing the cause of AS instead of just getting out of pain any old way, especially ways they might regret later in life.

The K. pneumoniae are dug in and recalcitrant, never leaving their niche in our intestines, although we can reduce their numbers using diet and antibiotics. They are just one of over 100 identified 'enterobacteriaceae' in the sewer we have to cart around with us. If there were just one pill I could take that would wipe these out permanently, I would take that treatment; there is no other cause of AS. I hope that macrophage research can produce some help for us, but all the studies which are contrary to Ebringer's work have hurt us very much. If they found a cure there would be no more need for studies!

Best Regards,
John

Thanks John-
Between all of you I'm getting a clearer picture...pieces of the jigsaw coming together in the old brain! Sometimes it's down to just the way someone puts it!

So am I correct in restating it that it's down to breaking patterns or habits in the immune system.. or stopping them forming in the first place (as well as dealing with the critters.. evolving them towards a greater friendliness for example)?

In an ideal situation, if the above were dealt with, could the bone damage then be stimulated to repair itself or be corrected in some other way (obviously depending on extent of damage and time elapsed and current technology!) ?

Sorry to go on about this... I could research around the houses but it's so much easier and quicker talking to you guys...and besides very useful to talk it through rather than have some idea mulled over in one's own brain alone!

Cheers
Sue

Sue,
it's down to the numbers of klebs in the gut. We can live with a relatively small population, but when they are fed with food we have not digested, their numbers can increase by orders of magnitude. The immune system secretes components across the gut epithelium as a matter of course, and when lots of klebs are found the immune system produces lots of klebs targeted antibodies. And when this IgA population reaches a certain level there are enough to attack self tissue which looks like klebs - the B27 molecule. The habit will always be there, the trick is not to feed it.

& we cannot undo the damage, but we do learn to live with it; hence stretching & mobility exercices, walking & swimming etc. There should be a forum for that, instead of some of the silly stuff.


...if they be strong or able to endure physic, yet it brings them to an ill habit, they make their bodies no better than apothecaries' shops; this and such-like infirmities must needs follow.

So basically 'they' are cleverer than we are in the sense of their speed of multiplying and adaptability etc. When you say the habit will always be there..you mean the immune system can always be fooled? Which is why...oh what is his name... the guy that talks about evolving bacteria towards benign forms... we (science) need to work on the level of manipulating them, as well as us not feeding them.

Re undoing the damage..I don't understand why bone cannot be made to grow..cartilage and all.. given the right stimulation.. but that's a bit off the subject and the wall.

Thanks bilko.