Kickas.org Forums Treatments, Drugs and Alternatives NSD and diet-related; Two AS Sub-groups?

Hi Krishna

You're way ahead of me on the survey. I'm sure your suggestions would be helpful if it did occur.

You haven't commented on the 'Two sub-group' idea so I assume you don't think, as John does, that we are the enlightened ones and the others are suffering their AS in ignorance.

Wally

Hi Wind_rider

I can see this subject has stirred some strong emotions. You too obviously believe the doctors and the AS sufferers who ignore diet are simply wrong.

Of those with AS who do not believe the AS-diet link there are some I know who do not take NSAIDS. I am talking of people who are attending an AS exercise group so they accept the value of exercise but they are not just covering all their symptoms with NSAID.

You say "Do you think there are many doctors that get sick on DOUGHNUTS? Have neck lock from a bag of french fries and a cheeseburger on a white bread bun? ". These are the sort of symptoms I was referring to which would convince anyone who had them that diet was a factor. Obviously the non-diet people do not have them. Doesn't it make them different?

Wally

Dear Bilko

I can understand there are politics involved on this issue. When I have raised the diet-AS subject to medical professionals here I have received condescending platitudes. But the bias is because they think they are right and we are wrong. That should not prevent our side from gathering information to prove THEY are wrong.

Wally

Hi Sue

God protect us from all the aspartame-hating non-AS sufferers who write intellectual responses to posts on this forum!

You write "..to hold all variables except one..the test variable, constant over a prolonged period...in order to deduce a 'scientific' connection between diet and AS or diet and illhealth generally, is well nigh impossible". Isn't that what Ebringer has done in the case of AS? Of course not successfully isolating the single variable would be an explanation of studies which failed to prove the AS-diet link. There are of course people like myself who would swear the connection is so direct it is obvious (like John with his doughnuts, french fries and buns).

Wally

Hi Wally,
I want to explore the truth with out any bias. I understand bias is my worst enemy. I go to great people like John, Ted, rheumys, pubmed etc., to find clues to the puzzle.

If you want to see the progress in my search for the truth pls visit the following web site:

The Challenging Puzzle

Also I extensively document my own experiments/results. Pls see the thread krishna in this. forum.

Rgds.,
Krishna

Yes, my GP is into anti-aging and believes the theory that grains were only introduced in the last 500-1000 yrs and says we do NOT need grains or starchy food in our diet. He also says the food pyamid is all wrong and we should not be eating 8 - 12 servings of grain a day.He believes it causes inflamation and health problems in general. So I decided even if the diet doesn't give me the results it gives others I will stick to it anyway. He is definitely is not a conventional dr. I really like him. He was the only dr. who could figure out what was wrong with me so I will stick with him.

One thing I was thinking about lately was: I read somewhere that they have found dinosaur fossils that have been fused. So if a dinosaur spine is fused I doubt that it was because he ate too much pasta. So maybe whatever caused the dinosaur to fuse is causing the people who do not respond to the diet to fuse. As wind-rider says there may be different triggers to AS. We are not all alike. We all respond differently to medication, diets ect. Some can eat dairy without a problem others like myself notice an increase in pain after any dairy. Does anyone have a theory on why a dinosaur would fuse a million years ago before the introduction of grains and starch?

There is no drug stronger than a good attitude.

Hi Wally,

For myself the link is more subtle though I have a stonger response to dairy. Eating any dairy or too much sugar can cause problems. You know in the 7 months that I have been on the diet I have never really tested it to see if I would be worse off if I was eating starch. I am assuming that since I have never really gotten to a pain free point that I would be a lot worse off if I wasn't on the diet. Though my AS has a distinct pattern which is I have a good day then a bad day followed by a good day and then a bad day. It very rarely breaks that pattern. My bad days vary from just stiffness to extreme pain but I always know the next day will be a good day. The good days range from stiffness to pain free. I just wish I could get my good days to stick around a lot longer. One other thing I wanted to mention is I tried the apple diet once and the followng month my ESR was down to 6, which is the lowest it has ever been. So that has me thinking as well, though it didn't help with the pain at all. Just can't bear the thought of another apple diet.

There is no drug stronger than a good attitude.

Deborah,
That's a good open minded GP, great. If you search for more info about starch and inflammation without the Kleb connection you can look at. http:////www.stopinflammation.com/ About you're GP I don't agree with the time scale as grains were added some 8000 years ago to our diet in some cases, together with the agricultural revolution. Apparently when looking at archaelogical evidence AS but also arthritis and gout followed the pattern of agricultural revolution but there is not many research in this field.
About the dinosaurs: I think you mean the famous Ankylosaurus that had some natural fusion between the vertebrae and the hip joint I believe but that is a natural fusion that was meant to be.
Gerard

"That we become twice as old now as a century ago is the work of plumbers, not doctors" -Midas Dekkers-

Hi, Gerard:

"We" as humans have been eating starches for a very long time, but "We" as a Northern European group ate few starches until the introduction of potatoes and corn from the New World as major food sources less than 500 years ago. The B27 antigen was allowed to propagate in earlier, non-starch-centric cultures; those peoples, eating the most starches had already genetically culled out their B27s.

What is more, ultra-refined, micronized, and bleached flour has only been widely available since the 1880s; the starches previously consumed were very different. The volume of starchy products, with extrememly high shelf-life then increased dramatically.

For everyone, Dr. Mercola has written extensively on the elimination of grains both on his site and also his NoGrains book. Of course, most useful for us is Carol Sinclair's IBS (and AS) eating NSDregimen.

Best Regards,
John

A punk stopped me on the street and said: "You got a light Mack?"

Wally,

But they aren't different.

Is it not an oxymoron to say that people with AS don't have symptoms of AS? "Obviously the non-diet people do not have them."
Well, what are they doing in that AS excercise group? Were they bored?

We see that on this websight all the time. Yikes. I mean, HOW DO THEY KNOW, THEY DON'T FOLLOW THE DIET ANYWAY?

What is the human body made of? And how does the body get its raw materials to metabolize into human form?

Why does veterinary science support the diet/disease connection? Have you ever fed a sick pet or horse a different diet and/or nutraceutical and seen stunning results? Was the pet or horse capable of faking the results?

The physicians don't experience the symptoms, therefore, they do not believe in the connection, either. Their fatal error is one of assumption that the arthritic body is like theirs. Most physicians' experiences with arthritis patients is going to be with either rheumatoid or osteo, probably neither of which responds to NSD/LSD the way AS does. For statistical purposes, we almost don't exist. We are a blip on the radar.

I don't think they are "simply" wrong. I think they are complicated wrong. I don't think I am completely correct either. Because from a scientific veiwpoint, I can only present a hypothesis (diet is a strong factor in disease progression) and then seek facts to prove or disprove it. Since we have no clones, we cannot test the diet theory to meet current standards of proof. I think the sticking point is that the powers that be want to prove the actual mechanism by which the diet works. I don't like this. At times total understanding does not make something work better. Look at how many thousands of people manage to tape television shows without understanding how the *&^%$-ing VCR really works. We at best, even with an excellent survey, are going to presenting mostly anecdotal evidence.

However, I am certainly not going to sit around waiting for the "proof" to be presented to me if my personal experiences seem to support the theory. I am thrilled that some of the ideas considered far out 10 years ago regarding diet and disease are slowly being proved more likely to be true.