Kickas.org Forums Treatments, Drugs and Alternatives NSD and diet-related; diet and sulfasalazine??

Well,maybe we don't need'em.I think we don't after reading what I am sure u have read :that mice who had HLA B27 and were kept in a bacteria free environment didn't develop AS, and the ones around bacteria did...that tells me we must not need the buggies.
I wonder if poking the Klebs with a straw at work exposed me?I'll never know....Did they fight back?LOL

Thanks,I wonder if I can get that in the US?
Only 19 hrs into the fast and already feeling wonderful

Your insights are much appreciated...

Hi John and Shauna,

A quick look at Wikipedia under 'gut flora' will show that we can't live with out our gut flora.
"The metabolic activities performed by these bacteria resemble those of an organ, leading some to liken gut bacteria to a 'forgotten' organ"

I doubt those transgenic mice kept in a germ free environment and lacking gut flora would last long.
For a person whose gut lining is functioning normally the immune system is in effect blind to the existence of the hundreds of different species in the gut. It's only in a condition like AS where gut mucosal lining integrity is compromised (and the patient has a number of predisposing genetic factors like HLA B27 IL 23R ERAP1 KIR and others) that the immune system is triggered to look at a commensal bacteria like Klebsiella (assuming they are the driver of AS) and mount a dysregulated immunological cascade culminating in an inflammatory disease.

Cheers David

We the Klebs are being victimised. We're hungry down here. It's dark and you won't send down any starch to ease our plight.
You say we're bad. Not true. Everyone else can get along with us, why can't you.
You say we're bad, and that we keep bad company.
We're not bad. We're just misunderstood (by your immune system)
You're the mutant, not us, you and your stuffed B27.
You're in the minority you know - most of your fellow B27's don't hate us like you do.
Come on - let us have something to eat - just a little bit of fruit cake - how much can that hurt!

Cheers David

well put. its about time somebody spoke out against bacterial genocide.

One of the things that worried me about taking minocycline for six months was the loss of intestinal flora. I took large amounts of probiotics daily and was relieved not to develop candida overgrowth or anything similar.

I find this a very interesting debate and hope it continues with more input from others.

Setting aside whether we actually need the 'good' bacteria, the real key to the puzzle, in my opinion, is why some of our bodies 'misunderstand' the normal bacteria in our gut (and other parts of our bodies). The idea of molecular mimicry has made the most sense to me so far.

I belonged to the Canadian Celiac Association for many years and received their monthly newsletter. One of them had a fascinating article about molecular mimicry and I wish I could find it now. However, from memory, in celiac disease it went something like this (and I have mentioned this elsewhere on KA if I seem to be repeating myself):

There is a genetic factor in celiac disease - I don't believe they've isolated yet like they have in AS (HLAB27 etc.) So a celiac is primed to get the disease by their genetic make-up but something has to set it off. One study showed that celiacs had more of a particular immune system cell in their gut lining than non-celiacs.(I recall a T-cell but don't have the article so this is from memory.) So the genetic "priming" may be the presence of these immune system cells that are not present in 'normal' people. When the trigger is introduced, those immune system cells go into action.

I believe it was the same article that suggested that one or more intestinal viruses had a molecular structure similar to gluten - hence molecular mimicry. However, people without these extra immune system cells in their gut don't react to the mimicry, while in celiacs the immune cells kick into gear and from that point forward confuse gluten with the toxic virus.

Celiac is surprisingly common despite the fact that it used to be a killer. Populations that did not rely heavily on gluten-based grains (wheat, rye, barley) but ate oats as a staple instead, have a much higher incidence of celiac. In populations where wheat was the staple, many celiacs died, did not reproduce and hence the numbers are lower. In the west of Ireland, Scotland and (I think) Iceland, it was too wet to grow wheat so oats became the staple. Celiac is very common in individuals whose roots are from those areas.

For a particular genetic factor to be common, typically it must confer an advantage in the individuals who have it. For example, sickle cell anemia confers some resistance to maleria in African populations despite its obvious potential to kill. One theory is that the presence of these special immune system cells in the gut lining of celiacs may have made them more resistant to intestinal infections at one time.

So... I'm getting to my point at last. I wonder what advantage immune system malfunctions may have conferred on the population, perhaps at some time in the past. Do we have 'trigger-happy' immune systems that were once valuable in fighting off infections etc. Why do some individuals get multiple immune system disorders (it's more frequent that one would expect)? Also - what benefits do klebsiella bacteria offer non-AS people - what's their function?

Thoughts anyone?

I've probably just been rambling here but I think I'll post it anyway!

good one...lol

wendy,

good thoughts, good questions.

i feel in my gut (no pun intended....ok, pun intended!)

that everything in nature has a purpose,

everything in nature happens for a reason,

even if we don't have all the answers figured out,

like your example of sickle cell conferring some resistance to malaria and thus those people are more likely to survive and thus that gene is passed on.

i did a little pubmed searching, a little googling, will do some more......
i know the info is out there......

also have a friend who got a grant from NIH to study the microbial ecology of the gut focussing on its usefulness; she's a microbial ecologist, used to study the microbial ecology of lakes and such, now her focus has shifted somewhat.

i did find info while digging around that one can actually survive with their internal microenvironment wiped out (though i imagine we'd have to supplement to make up for what those microbes do for us and would have to find ways to control the invasion of other microbes like yeast that they help to squash!), but those microbes do serve a purpose, its a symbiotic relationship, not a parasitic relationship by any means...actually, come to think of it, i think it was a wikipedia entry i was reading, which is what david suggested.

anyway, all very interesting, and if i find any papers discussing the evolutionary advantages of "autoimmune diseases", will pass it along.

Hi Wendy,
I think in the opinion of the Road Back people the fears of overgrowth by Candida are exagerated, especially given the potential trade off (loss of gut flora diversity) of greatly improved RA symptoms. RA as you know can be destructive of one's quality of life, to put it mildly. They would make the point that Minocycline has a very low toxicity, especially when compared to the 'miracle' drugs of the day - gold, Quinine, penicillamine, cortisone (in massive doses), and more lately methotrexate, all DMARD's that offered only the hope of slowing the disease progression. I think in the case of Minocycline clinical evidence is just as important as understanding the mechanism of action.

A question that arises from your post is: What constitutes the normal gut flora?
I would maintain that our diets have altered over the last 10,000 years such that we have not had the time to adjust in an evolutionary sense - to adjust from the hunter gather diet of high meat and animal fat intake; and to pare that back and replace it with a high-calorie, nutrient-poor, immune-disruptive grains-based diet with its attendant food related health problems.

Their are genetic predispositions to many diseases and modern medicine and research are largely directed towrds this end. However I would maintain that environmental triggers far outweigh genetic predispoitions and that the dieases of affluence - obesity, diabetes heart disease and cancer are the result.

We are not programmed to eat massive amounts of grains - so that if removed from our diets celiacs, diabetes, obesity, and heart disease might never arise - given of course that the damage has not already been done.
Some maintain that up to 90 % of cancers are avoidable - are the result of environmental triggers - grains based diet, alcohol, cigarette smoke, pollution.

Even AS might never eventuate - as it never did for the Innuit when they lived a more traditional lifestyle.
Klebsiella are considered normal gut flora - but in a starch free diet their numbers are diminished - in an evolutionary sense they probably shouldn't be considered part of our normal gut flora?

Cheers all.
David