Kickas.org Forums Treatments, Drugs and Alternatives NSD and diet-related; Two AS Sub-groups?

Hey, Ted:

It's difficult to catch Ebringer running out of studies; this very one was performed upon chronic NSAID-takers (who certainly have a level of LGS)--those with RA and were B27 certified negative. He found zero elevated IgA-Kp levels, but he had to differentiate between the groups, and in doing thus found that the vast majority of those with active RA have elevated IgG specific to Proteus mirabilis. He believes this germ, responsible for about 15% of UTIs, is the cause of RA; same molecular mimicry mechanism.

I had so many more questions for Ebringer than I was able to ask, but these were some of the most important that could not be avoided, especially since he included the data prominently in several of his papers on the topic.

Keep trying!

Best Regards,
John

A punk stopped me on the street and said: "You got a light Mack?"

Hi Bilko

All this microbiology has my head spinning. I would like to make one simple point which seems to have been missed in the discussion.

You said "Ebringer's classification into two groups is really very simple; he would listen to the patient's medical history to form an opinion, then if AS was suspected test the level of klebs specific antibodies. If you had inflammation and pain but no elevated klebs IgA then it wasn't AS. Otherwise it was. "

I don't know what it is like in the UK but here in Australia I am not sure if the local labs are even capable of making these tests. I think I could say with confidence that none of the people diagnosed with AS that I see would have had such a test. So Ebringer's study groups and the AS patients I see are likely to be significantly different. Surely it becomes questionable, perhaps even inappropriate, to use Ebringer's studies to make general comments about present AS sufferers as has been done throughout this discussion.

Wally

Hi Wally,

I didn't really understand my message either - not once I'd deleted and retracted, and filtered what I *really* wanted to say.....

As I said, it really wasn't the best of times for me to be posting, but knowing that my year is about to come to a Grand Spectacular Finale (I live in hope) and knowing what can happens in this place when Starch Wars kick in...I thought I was probably *safer* whipping out the old light sabre now rather than later when things might really get messy...???

Thing is I can't help thinking that if you'd posted this in the main forum this thread would have taken on a whole new angle and velocity - and probably mainly because there are (far too) many ppl here who are anti-diet and would welcome your comments with rather than objectivity - "proof" that they were right by their personal experiment of trying life without starch for one meal, half a meal, no sodding meal but hey, anything's better than admitting to wanting the easy way out....

I'd say go search, but there's a lot of threads been deleted along the way. Even the old forum has gone AWOL - and what a veritable treat that was as to how the bunnies treated the dieters *shakes head*

I mentioned Locus of Control, and saying how those with an external one can and will project their distaste as to someone else's personal responsibility and accountability for their health is an ummm, understatement. And round here, abscence of a Pollyanna Syndrome can end up being a disadvantage...whatever you post can end up getting flamed or ignored, and somehow the NSD can seem to cop the blame (but as I said - projection)

It annoys me that I had to find this site to find out about this diet.

And it annoys me more that some users of this site will all too readily diss the whole thing, when in fact they have NOT given it a fair trial, whatever their words might be.

If there truly are two groups, no-one will know unless they really give this thing their very best, and sadly that isn't always going to happen. And even in the event that they did and it was proven beyond all doubt that some ppl were non-responders - what % would you estimate that would be??

My sense of sadness is in knowing (from the outtakes) that for some ppl, this kind of discussion is like a *valid* reason why they don't even have to try - and that, believe it or not, breaks my heart...

I know what this diet did for me Wally, and at one point, in a parallel universe, was going to ensure that this was the best year of my life. Well, as they say, sh*t happens, and it has instead turned out to be my very worst one - to date! And how sodding happy am I that I'm not having to live through it with the pain, fatigue and inability to see the future that I had once accepted as being my normal??!

Hmmm...you're probably going to be understanding this post even less than the other one at this rate....rant over.


Take care,

Jan


If my life is for rent and I don't learn to buy

Well I deserve nothing more than I get

'Cos nothing I have is truly mine

- Dido

Thanks John, i will keep trying...
I suppose UTI is the same as TPI in Oz!
I've seen those other bacteria associations - any for polychondritis? - attacks soft cartilage of nose and ear lobe, morbid outlook.
I know i'd need to look further, but i've had pneumonia too, so if it was Kp (who knows) i've no idea how long my immune system would be activated or how it would effect IgA for other pneumonics.
It does appear that gut damage is necessary and that's IgA territory, but there may be no damage to the bronchial/lung tissue with pneumonia so no surface expression.

The NSAID damaged gut and lack of IgA against Kp is quite interesting as to me it infers that there is no such thing as a colony of Kp living somewhere inside the body (the joints, sinus, tear duct or some badly reticulated part) otherwise wouldn't there be an immune reaction to it. If we have a damaged gut anything could get inside, therefore, why not colonies of Proteus, Yersinium etc. etc. as well - with associated antibodies. There's a trigger somewhere. And if it's not always B27, then what is it i wonder? Cartilage, entheses, muscle ... I did a search once for "B7 B27" and was amazed at the lengths some researchers went to IGNORE Kp.
I agree, basic Kp cause, but with so many questions. Too many possibilities. Amazing variety of individual reaction.

Ted

In reply to:

---

Surely it becomes questionable, perhaps even inappropriate, to use Ebringer's studies to make general comments about present AS sufferers as has been done throughout this discussion.

---

No, no, no Wally; on these discussion forums we get all the subjective guff, but if we are going to learn owt we must value science which makes headway. It is true the IgA-Kp test is not standard path lab for AS, but this kind of science works by studying samples. You are unnecessarily confusing things; for instance, Jayne, on the main forum, recentley reported that the diet, then humira, didn't seem to help. Then a whole body scan revealed no AS inflammation, her pain appears to be the legacy of all the mechanical damage. Isn't this explanation so much simpler? To say Jayne is in a seperate sub group is true but trite.


This we prescribe though no physician . . .
Our doctors say this is no month to bleed. (Rich. II)

Hi Jan,

Just to let you know the Old Forums will *fingers crossed* be found again soon. Jo's unearthed (un-techno-babbled) our best lead yet, so we just need to get our hosts to listen to our argument and we're in business again.

It's bizzare, but it's the same throughout life: Even in techno-land everyone talks twice as much as they listen. I was always taught I had two ears but only one mouth, and I should use them in that proportion. Maybe the difficulty is two ears but ten fingers?? Heh, could I be onto something? Nah, I still only type with two of 'em ;) Hey ho.

I don't know if I ever said thanks for your kindness during my difficult times earlier this year? Thank you! Next week we're all going to LOROS to add my dad's light to their (all too enlightened) light-for-life Christmas tree.

Hoping you're still 100% pain free and that your year perks up as it draws to a close,

  Loz

"Loving what is right is different from hating what is wrong and feeling right about it." - Roy Masters

Wally,
I have a counter question for you. Why should you believe people who are sure that diet doesn't work for them while you have no indication that they even tried the diet for any period of time or have notion how the diet should be done? And if they tried how many had one starch free meal and notice no difference in pain and draw conclusions? Personally I opt for a different approach. I only believe people who say this if they visited this forum and if diet doesn't work for them if they have searched for the reason why it doesn't work. For instance by posting here what they have eaten and have counselled here what could be going wrong. If they should do that they could belong to the second subgroup you started this thread with but I'm pretty sure this group would be dramatically smaller then the amount of so called non responders in your exercise group.
Anyway it is more logical to look in that direction then to assume that there is a difference between the AS patients in England from twenty years ago and the patients in Australia nowadays. Geez, your head must be spinning indeed .
Gerard

"That we become twice as old now as a century ago is the work of plumbers, not doctors" -Midas Dekkers-

Hi Gerard,

A twist on your question is why does the diet work so well for me (elimination of all AS symptoms), but I can not sustain the energy on the diet? What makes me different from the rest of the dieters (the strict No Starch individuals). I can handle Low Starch with no issue from an energy standpoint, but the AS does bounce back into my life.

The only period I was able to be strict NSD was Jan 02 to May 02. The only thing I can think that was different is that I had performed the 3 day apple diets on 3 occasions prior to this (Nov/Dec/Jan). Other than that, reviewing my history I do not see any differences.

Currently doing my first apple fast (first day) now that I did put some weight on. Will see if I can make the 3 days, but may cut to 2 days.

Take care,

Tim

Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional

And how come I still have a size 14 derriere?!!!!!!