Kickas.org Forums Treatments, Drugs and Alternatives NSD and diet-related; Enterobacter cloacae and BCG

Hi all,
This morning i had the results back from a stool test and it showed I have an overgrowth of enterobacter cloacae. There was no significant kp presence. However, from a quick google I see that enterobacter is very similar to kp, does anyone have any experience of this?

The holistic practitioner who i saw to get the stool results also spent over an hour speaking with me to help her put together a treatment programme for me. She emailed me a few hours later and says she feel very strongly that the BCG immunisation i had at age 14/15 triggered off my immune problems. Interestingly very soon after the BCG I developed very severe glandular fever and viral hepatitis and since then I have never been the same health wise. Anyone else had any experience of immunisations as an AS or other health issue trigger.

This may belong somewhere else, but i thought i would here with you guys!

Thanks

Hey you've paid the money and i'm sure they are professionally sound, but if it's a simple dysbiosis we're talking about then consider taking control of it yourself with a bi-daily dose of apple cider vinegar.
Maybe you have...
It is a motile bug so flushing (lots of fluid) and fructose/mannose/cranberry and other juices should help.
From memory it's similar to Kleb as gram neg rod shape as common as mud and can also attack the lungs.
Worth betting that salt and acid vinegars also reduce its presence.

Better thought i, to check. Nosocomial infection mainly, opportunistic, usually associated with unhealthy people and can be quite virulent - lesser version of golden staph, quickly adapts to anti-bacterials etc so it could be possible after a course in anti-biotics.
Unknown news is whether it produces AS-like symptoms.
Good news it is encapsulated so should respond to NSD if it is at problem levels.
Maybe JanPM will respond...

Hi, Sarah:

There is something that everyone should keep in mind when test results like this are obtained: For people who are susceptible to AS there is no safe level of Klebsiella. What that means is that if the lab measures Klebsiella pneumoniae at average levels--that is still WAY TOO MUCH for us. The lab has ignored the genetic equation and just focused upon statistical distributions of bowel flora.

Certainly, E. cloacae is elevated, but that is not such a serious problem (not yet) as this fact being an indicator of--as Ted has already suggested--dysbiosis. If treating for the overgrowth of this bacterium will raise K. pneumoniae populations, I would run from such 'treatments;' they will do more harm than good.

There is small doubt that the BCG inoculation caused (triggered) your subsequent autoimmune condition; there have been many cases of AS triggered by hepatitis B vaccinations. Live and learn.

Thanks for posting here,
John

Sarah,
I am rather slow in responding--I saw your post yesterday, but was in no condition to respond. My naturopath prescribed a hormone, DHEA, which had deprived me of sleep for about 10 days, which I stopped 2 days ago. Last night was the first decent sleep I have had. So, while part of my frazzled mind is composing some choice comments for my NP, I familiarized myself with Enterobacter cloacae.

The major points I see are that, if you have large numbers of this bacteria in your gut, which must be the case from the stool test results, then you abolutely have intestinal dysbiois. The ratios of good and bad bacteria are way out of balance. Another point is that this bacteria is much more similar to Kp than to Pm. Unlike Pm (and all of Pm's closest relatives), this bacteria can't produce H2S gas. I repeat, this is NOT a sulfate-loving bacteria (Kp also is not a sulfate-lover). So...in reference to the earlier discussion of a "hot wind", Enterobacter cloacae is not the cause of a sulfurous smell. That's not to say that some other bacteria can't be stimulated by the growth of this one, such as living off waste products from E. cloacae. I am more inclined to think that your dysbiosis generally encourages the growth of some other sulfate-loving bacteria, that otherwise would be in lower numbers. It might be worth checking with the doctor or the lab, to see if this test will report Pm in overgrowth. Remember that conventional stool tests will not report even large numbers of Pm--only alternative medicine stool tests will do this.

E. cloacae does produce gas, mainly CO2 and H2 from fermenting glucose. It is able to ferment lactose, known as milk sugar (Pm can't do this), but only a few strains can ferment branched starch, called amylopectin (most strains of Kp can do this). It can also ferment carrageenan and cellobiose, which suggests it is not a dedicated meat degrader like Pm or other sulfate-lovers. As Ted mentioned, it is able to move around using flagella (like Pm, but not like Kp). It is capable of causing urinary tract infections, which means it can use urea as a source of nitrogen (it has the urease enzyme), and it may like more neutral to alkaline conditions. I infer this from the fact that use of urea produces alkaline conditions, as does use of citrate as a source of carbon (it does this). So, as Ted mentioned, it should be vulnerable to acids in the gut. One way to do this is the apple cider vinegar dosing, another is to eat acid-producing foods, like cabbage (sauerkraut would be a good idea). Cranberry juice is a good idea also, to help prevent a urinary tract infection. Probiotics also introduce bacteria that naturally produce acids as waste products--you really need these (in probiotic pills, sauerkraut, kefir, and yogurt, for example).

I really don't think that there is such a thing as a "simple" case of dysbiosis. I have had Pm in gut overgrowth for many years, sometimes in larger numbers than E. coli. And I will probably never be completely rid of it. I have, however, managed to tame it down to behaving as a neutral gut resident, by bringing in good bacteria in probiotics and by eating a diet that it does not like (also by using digestive enzymes).

The problem with taking an antibiotic is that it will probably only work with gut that is only mildly imbalanced. When the balance of gut microbes is severely out of wack, then using an antibiotic may only make things worse. Worst case, as a friend of mine with Crohn's disease and Pm overgrowth found when she tried to get rid of Pm, a much worse bacteria may replace the one you are trying to get rid of. In her case, it was Clostridium difficile, and the colitis it caused nearly killed her. She was ultimately saved by a probiotic containing Saccharomices boulardii (a yeast, spelling?), but that is a whole other story. Now she lives with Pm as a gut resident, as I do. Only people with mild dysbiosis will just bounce back from antibiotics.

Well that is more than enough to say. If you want more info, let me know and I will go into the university library and get the Bergey's Manual out and see of the latest edition has anything useful.
Jan

Hi Jan,
Thanks so much for your reply, very helpful and interesting as always, I appreciate the time you took given your frazzled brain!

If my understanding is correct, I should definitely stay away from cow milk, and this may initially give me more of an improvement than cutting out starch. The gums are also a no no.

If you do have time to see if there is any new information I would be so grateful.

Take care

Sarah,
I think you misunderstood me, and that's probably my fault for not writing clearly. I was emphasizing that you have dysbiosis in general and that you have a lot more going on than Enterobacter cloacae. You have AS, so absolutely do not go back on starch. You must have Kp also, and Kp is adept at getting starch. Kp is also able to use milk sugar.

The thing to remember about stool tests, is that when they show large numbers of a bacteria, that is a real result to take seriously. But when other bacteria (or yeast) don't show up on the test at all, that does not mean that they are not there in your gut. It just means that they weren't coming out in that particular stool sample. So, pay attention to what shows up and ignore the fact that something else did not show up.

In my own experience and from what I have learned about dysbiosis, the most effective dietary restrictions are to limit starch (all kinds), eliminate milk sugar, and eliminate table sugar. That means the NSD is a good diet for dysbiosis, with dairy reduced to hard cheeses and 24 hour fermented yogurt (unless you are allergic to dairy, in which case eliminate all dairy). Table sugar is a big problem for dysbiosis, this includes white and brown sugar, sugar cane juice, syrup, and molasses. Some people can heal dysbiosis and still include honey, but there is so much sucrose and maltose in honey (even though it is mostly fructose), that it can still be a problem, especially for yeast. Stevia rebaudiana is a very sweet herb that I use instead of honey. So, consider doing the NSD with restrictions on dairy and sugar. Also consider strong probiotics and digestive enzymes.

Most of all, listen to your gut's reaction to these changes in you diet, and trust your own observations over what anybody else tells you (myself included).

I will check the U library when I can drive again,
Jan