Kickas.org Forums Ankylosing Spondylitis General Discussion #1 AS Web Support Group discussion with DragonSlayer (DO NOT READ!)

Are there any humans in this terrestrial epoch, who do not have “culturable Klebsiella” contained within their feces? And You actually believed that?!

In the laboratories of 17 countries the techniques for measuring elevated IgA-Kp (antibodies to Klebsiella) using proper ELISA techniques demonstrated AS patients with active disease in each country had the same antibody elevation: One bacterium and thousands of individuals. There were some of those 17 laboratories that did not achieve their valid results at first, and they required calibration and some refinements to their techniques and laboratory procedures, but they were finally able to substantiate the Ebringer group results.

It is unfortunate that a study was unable to reproduce results that are commonly accepted throughout the world, but their goal was to not find elevated levels of antibodies, so they did not care enough about accuracy. Nor did they care whether their subjects had “active” AS or not. If You think this level of study is rigorous enough for Yourself, that is just fine, but I want a more assiduous and thoughtful approach to my own health issues.



Well, jroc, we here at KickAS have published several Ebringer papers right here on the site, just for reference:

molecular mimicry
Etiopathogenesis of Ankylosing Spondylitis and the Cross-Tolerance Hypothesis
Ankylosing Spondylitis is Caused by Klebsiella…many more…



Not really, as I have already done so in previous posts that You should have by now ferreted out as You seem capable of locating the most arcane and outdated/eclipsed posts to try and embarrass or discredit me. You should already have found it--

But although I would not “care” to elaborate, I shall do so once again for the edification of those few members actually interested (and the delay in this response is mostly because this is no mean exposition, but I have tried to keep it brief enough):

Gender Differences in AS

There are cultural as well as physiological differences between young men and women of the age at which onset of AS would normally occur.

Both groups: Enter the period of greatest susceptibility for the same reason at the same time. If Your doctor does not know this reason, (s)he will not be very useful in helping you to prevent permanent skeletal damage.

Young men: During this period (age 17 through 22) consume food in great quantities, especially convenience foods like starches. They burn calories bulking up and competing in sports. And what they might think was muscle soreness or even torn ligaments or pinched nerve in legs and lower back later turn out to be a chronic condition unrelated to over use or injury.

Young women: In this same age range are more conscious of their weight and usually reduce their consumption of sugars and starches, especially. But another factor is of perhaps more importance and that is the structure of the lymph ducts adjacent to the mesentery. Of course, in girls, these ducts are much longer than in their male counterparts, to accommodate womb expansion.

Molecular mimicry relies upon the fact that the agent provocateur in AS is a specific immunoglobulin, IgA-Kp and this has a half life of about 100 hours.

AS is a disease of lymph and this IgA-Kp (actually in lymph it is a dimer, or 2IgA-Kp), is produced within the lymph nodes, and must travel to the sites of activity through a process of diffusion (Einstein-Brownian motion), sometimes aided by muscle activity, and sometimes retarded by this means. There is nearly twice the volume of lymph in the human body as blood, and at the site of the primary lesion in AS, proposed as the result of molecular mimicry, there are twice as many lymph ducts as blood vessels: The alimentary tract.

Most often, the IgA do not make it through the longer female lymph ducts, in quantities high enough to cause disease, before they expire. There is, thusly, an established threshold that is never breached in some women with AS; these patients often experience activity in their upper backs and limbs before lower “classic” symptom presentation, so common in men. This symptom blurring and flattening of frequency and symptom distribution (platykurtosis), greatly complicates diagnoses in females, as most of us are aware.

Fusion Sites in AS

The process of inflammation in AS can sometimes lead to bony fusion, or bridging osteophytes called syndesmophytes. If AS will be characterized as a disease process that is one result of many episodes of KRA (Klebsiella Reactive Arthritis), through the basic process of molecular mimicry, then the disease can be studied (and even treated) with far greater success.

In this process, the IgA-Kp will bind with Osp (Outer surface protein) of B27-rich cells (collagens I, III, IV, and V), and two adjacent IgA-Kp, will trigger a complementary cascade, signaling the release of myriad necrotic cytokines that help disassemble dead cells. The inflammation is due to the perfusion in lymph of cellular bits, some of which are left behind, just as cinders after a fire. These are often calcium-rich immune components and also change the synovial chemistry to leach local calcium from local bone. The resultant fusion is much weaker than normal bone, lacking tension structures and matrix, marrow, and other key factors.

There are, of course many site variations and some kinds of joints will not fuse, especially in more active individuals, and some joints will fuse at differing rates, subject to many conditions like local mass-transport and basic reaction kinetics. There is a period of up to two years between "fibrosis" or thickening of the synovial fluids and ultimate fusion.

[And as a side-note, I regret that this is the level of my own understanding; I only offer this as a humble response to Your questions. However, I believe that molecular mimicry can adequately answer every such challenge, despite my own level of understanding and inability to communicate adequately].




Administration whacked my tail, perhaps because, despite Your “Do Not Read” suggestion, it seems other people were actually reading this, too.



Yes, of course: I herein and hereby speak with the same authority as You; …or did You simply appoint Your own self as spokesman for “the scientific community?” Is that EVERY scientist? Because I asked several scientist friends, and they had never even heard of jroc (must have used Your nom de plume).



And I don’t know what “bluff” You are referring to (neither does the good professor, in all probability). But this brings up another issue: Have You ever encountered any fact that You would have been too embarrassed to misrepresent?



I stagger under the influence of such a mental image, and bewildered as to why You would wish to punish me for promoting Ebringer’s valid work and opinions all along! I think You are overexposed already. But I could not offer any scene so “precious.” If You win, I’ll hire a male escort to play Twister with You, and tattoo on my backside: “Ebringer was wrong!!” with a tear emanating...ugh...from my lumbar spine.

TTFN,
John